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View Poll Results: Non-Americans, who would you vote for?

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  • Romney

    1 3.23%
  • Obama

    30 96.77%
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  1. #121
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    We're talking amongst ourselves guys; if you don't like it, don't eavesdrop.

    Also, complaining that our expressions of national pride alienates people in other countries isn't particularly convincing when you proceed to call us uncivilized.

  2. #122
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    We're talking amongst ourselves guys; if you don't like it, don't eavesdrop.

    Also, complaining that our expressions of national pride alienates people in other countries isn't particularly convincing when you proceed to call us uncivilized.

  3. #123
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    One of my European friends on FB was pretty offended that Obama said the U.S. is the "greatest country on earth". She is more liberal than Obama, so I suspect she would prefer him over Romney, but she was pretty angry. That is what Americans like to hear, but I can see how arrogant it is.

    Although, I wonder how much is also cultural, having the expectation that every leader of every country would say that. Every high school football team certainly thinks they are the greatest, and that is the topic of every cheerleader's phrase.
    I think this is a cultural thing, but I found it rather jarring when I first moved to the States. I love my country and I do believe it is one of the best places in the world to be in these days, but I don't think I would ever vocalize that in the presence of those from other countries unless I thought they felt the same. I realize that Canada is not the same kind of world power, but I was struck by the deep cultural differences that we had (perhaps shaped by our separate histories?), despite having great similarities in other ways.

    Jennifer suggested that it's seen more like just being proud of your family. I would venture to say that though that may be the sentiment, that is not the message that seems implied to those looking on. Pride is one thing, but this sounds more to my ears like, "The rest of your families SUCK! We're in a competition and mine's the BEST" shouted in a public place. I remember travelling in Europe and hearing a group of drunk Americans singing the anthem loudly. It just seemed obnoxious and pushy, even if no one was offended. (Clearly, that's an isolated incident and I think Canadians almost go overboard in the opposite direction, but that wouldn't even by on the radar for us to do when drunk!)

    Since becoming closer friends with more Americans, I have more context that allows me to hear it differently, so I am less likely to take it that way than I once was. I think you make an interesting point, Jennifer, about Americans expecting expressions of pride in country or statement of values to know they are indeed present rather than leaving it as an implied sentiment. That's something I hadn't thought about. I do believe that each of our country's respective histories go a long way in forming our style of expression (both spoken and unspoken) and in shaping what traits are most valued in a leader. As with personality, I think we tend to look at interactions and compare them with how various other groups interact with us to interpret meaning, instead of how a particular country interacts in a variety of different situations itself to provide the context.

  4. #124
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    @Jennifer Seriously?

    For a nation so fond of prescription drugs, you guys really can use a mouthful of

    ...as well as a lesson in self-depreciation. And no offense, but this is the kind of stuff that only gives more weight to the perception that the reason the Us *needs* these things is coz its people are bloody insecure for god knows what reason. Kind of like aggressive fear-biting dogs, or angsty teenagers dressing in a specific way to affirm they are cool.
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  5. #125
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    @lowtech I was being ironic. Something I'd expect most non-rednecks to understand.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Do you realize, though, that there are tons of really nasty spam e-mails going around through the religious communities here over dumb crap... like (1) when Obama DOESN'T say it [he must be ashamed of God / isn't really a Christian], or (2) didn't wear a flag lapel pin like Bush did [he mustn't be patriotic], and various other assorted and sundry? For you guys, it sounds like people just assume, "Oh, he still has his values and beliefs, he's just focusing on doing his job and not imposing his personal values on others," but over here people are very different in how they perceive it.

    And it's not just people whispering or mere bad-mouthing, it is the type of back-biting gossip and discontent that results in a candidate like Mitt Romney running and actually having a chance to win. They circulate these kind of rumors to disparage the president's moral values and character and faith over such stupid little things, and also to kind of arm-twist any moderates within the religious community so that they feel they need to go along with the crowd.

    It's pretty sick stuff. These groups are shameless.

    I fully expect to see / receive e-mails like this within the next week, about little cues Obama did not give that proves he is just some kind of Muslim sympathizer and not a Christian, and doesn't care about America, and how awful things are that people would vote for this kind of immoral human being.
    It's very apparent how weary and run-down Obama has become over the last 4 years having to deal with this shit, when all he ever wanted was to get on with the job. It's a major drawback of democracy - the need to pander to the lowest common denominator. Kind of a drawback of this forum too...
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  6. #126
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    I am so happy that I don't have tv/cable and am not tied to people who'd send out ridiculous emails to me... I can remain oblivious to all of the stupid rhetoric and beliefs that are thrown around, and don't have to watch any of the speeches which would cause me to roll my eyes, be alarmed at my fellow citizens, and become incredibly irritable.
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  7. #127
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Jennifer suggested that it's seen more like just being proud of your family.
    I am saying that for SOME of us, it is. And it can certaintly be said that way, and sometimes is.

    But yes, there's a brand of patriotism here that, when coupled with other comments and behavior and criticisms directed at the rest of the world, makes it clear that some people do thing we are better than other countries just because we're capitalist and democratic and religious. I mean, one reason I left my church is because I was sick of the patriotic aspect where no one was allowed to criticize the war or even question why we were overseas, without the military folks telling us we were disrespecting American soldiers and not being supportive of the Presidency, and people getting pissed off enough to not talk to each other anymore.

    I think there is a huge difference between reasonable questioning of policy, to make sure things stay on track, and pulling a stunt like what happened to our Vietnam vets in the 70's, where when they came home they were called baby-killers and spit on, etc. And I am pretty sure that any criticism of the military action was not directed at the soldiers risking their lives but at corrupt government that did not want its motivations or objectives questioned.

    In any case, you have to be VERY careful when and how you engage, and where, if you don't want to set off some of these traps. They claim to be defending one thing, but it's really more about preserving an environment around themselves in which they feel most comfortable and know how to operate within.

    I think you make an interesting point, Jennifer, about Americans expecting expressions of pride in country or statement of values to know they are indeed present rather than leaving it as an implied sentiment.
    In some ways, I feel like my country has little imagination... and a wave of underlying cynicism that prevents us from assuming the best in each other. (Our inherent skepticism/cyncism in this regard is pretty obvious in our entertainment... but it also impacts our trust of other people.) If you do not provide the right cues, then it is assumed that you do not care. But hey, we have the same arguments here on this forum regarding various types. It's not an isolated thing, and it's not all about politics, it also involves prominent personalities and life perspectives.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    It's very apparent how weary and run-down Obama has become over the last 4 years having to deal with this shit, when all he ever wanted was to get on with the job. It's a major drawback of democracy - the need to pander to the lowest common denominator. Kind of a drawback of this forum too...
    Yeah, it's all bullshit. I assumed that Obama's poor performance in the first debate was because he was focused on actually running the country; instead, he lost a lot of ground because he came off indifferent and not very invested or focused. Again, he did not provide the cues people wanted to see; hence, they assumed he didn't really care, and the attack dogs were just waiting to bring him down. There wasn't much leeway offered there.
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  8. #128
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    @Jennifer Seriously?

    For a nation so fond of prescription drugs, you guys really can use a mouthful of

    ...as well as a lesson in self-depreciation. And no offense, but this is the kind of stuff that only gives more weight to the perception that the reason the Us *needs* these things is coz its people are bloody insecure for god knows what reason. Kind of like aggressive fear-biting dogs, or angsty teenagers dressing in a specific way to affirm they are cool.
    I nominate you to go talk some sense into the evangelicals. Good luck with that.

    When Obama says things like "America is the greatest country in the world", it's purely a political statement with the purpose of shutting up his domestic opposition (evangelicals) when it comes to questioning his loyalty. This isn't limited to Obama. The Democratic party removed the word "God" from their platform and Republicans freaked out about it, calling them godless atheists (a pejorative in the US), so Democrats caved and put the word "God" back into their platform.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  9. #129
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    I thought the greatest country on earth was North Korea...

  10. #130
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    I nominate you to go talk some sense into the evangelicals. Good luck with that.
    Can I do it over Skype? I'm afraid they'll burn me at the stake for the witch that I am...
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