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  1. #11
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    But how can this event in Benghazi, especially our utter lack of listening to the security needs of the embassy, essentially our seeming lack of response to it once it did start (aside from those fucking heroic Navy SEALS who disobeyed orders), and the subsequent attempt to cover this up by claiming it was a spontaneous demonstration in response to a video, when it clearly was not, and we knew it, not be seen as an epic failure of this new approach (too soft, not worried enough about hard matters [i.e., not allowing your ambassador to be murdered by terrorists])?
    I don't know all of the details of this incident (does anyone?), but based upon what I have seen I have come to the conclusion that this was more of a mistake or an oversight rather than the result of bad policy. It's shameful that this happened, but I honestly don't believe you can indict Obama's overall approach based upon this incident, alone. If we have another incident like this, where security requests are ignored, then I will be on board with you. But I just don't see it right now.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    I don't know all of the details of this incident (does anyone?), but based upon what I have seen I have come to the conclusion that this was more of a mistake or an oversight rather than the result of bad policy. It's shameful that this happened, but I honestly don't believe you can indict Obama's overall approach based upon this incident, alone. If we have another incident like this, where security requests are ignored, then I will be on board with you. But I just don't see it right now.
    Once again, I find this reasonable.

    But, at the same time, how does not properly securing your embassy in one of the biggest hotspots in the world today not correlate to a certain degree with an overall softer approach with your policy? I mean, I don't think it's unreasonable to question whether the new "soft approach" -- and, once again, ftr, I actually support Obama's foreign policies in many ways, as do most conservatives I know, tbh -- led to too much of a soft (and thus vulnerable) underbelly. I mean, the ramping up of security in Islamic terrorist hotspots is the necessary policy response to this. So, the question is: why was embassy security in these Islamic terrorist hotspots so weak to allow this to happen in the first place?

  3. #13
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    And then what the fuck was up with this? How is this anything other than a blatant attempted cover up?




  4. #14
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    AND WHY HAS THE MEDIA BEEN GIVING OBAMA A COMPLETE PASS ON THIS???

    Can you even imagine what they'd be doing to a sitting Republican president if this happened leading into an election??

  5. #15
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Once again, I find this reasonable.

    But, at the same time, how does not properly securing your embassy in one of the biggest hotspots in the world today not correlate to a certain degree with an overall softer approach with your policy? I mean, I don't think it's unreasonable to question whether the new "soft approach" -- and, once again, ftr, I actually support Obama's foreign policies in many ways, as do most conservatives I know, tbh -- led to too much of a soft (and thus vulnerable) underbelly. I mean, the ramping up of security in Islamic terrorist hotspots is the necessary policy response to this. So, the question is: why was embassy security in these Islamic terrorist hotspots so weak to allow this to happen in the first place?
    As I said, I don't think this was the result of a policy. I think it was a mistake, an oversight. The federal government is a massive bureaucracy and things fall through the cracks all of the time. That said, I expect this to be fixed, whether it was an oversight or the result of bad policy. Obama seems far more competent than Bush when it comes to fixing these sorts of problems. Bush was stubborn (he called it strength), whereas Obama has a more evidence-based approach to his decision making. I don't expect it to happen again.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  6. #16
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    AND WHY HAS THE MEDIA BEEN GIVING OBAMA A COMPLETE PASS ON THIS???

    Can you even imagine what they'd be doing to a sitting Republican president if this happened leading into an election??
    If it happened to a Republican, MSNBC would be covering it and Fox News wouldn't be. CNN still wouldn't be. It's a wash.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    As I said, I don't think this was the result of a policy. I think it was a mistake, an oversight. The federal government is a massive bureaucracy and things fall through the cracks all of the time. That said, I expect this to be fixed, whether it was an oversight or the result of bad policy. Obama seems far more competent than Bush when it comes to fixing these sorts of problems. Bush was stubborn (he called it strength), whereas Obama takes are more evidence-based approach to his decision making. I don't expect it to happen again.
    This is all reasonable, and I do largely agree.

    I just think an oversight can be caused, to a significant extent, by an overall softer philosophy.

    In fact, while I've mostly supported Obama's foreign policy, I'm being completely honest when I say this has always been my one worry.

    Yeah, it can be effective to let your enemies waste their energy, and for you to use David Carradine-esque Kung Fu moves on them.

    But that overall softer approach, often leads to lapses, much like a softer overall defensive mindset in football.

    The weakness might not be apparent all the time, but, all of a sudden, you get unexpectedly gashed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    If it happened to a Republican, MSNBC would be covering it and Fox News wouldn't be. CNN still wouldn't be. It's a wash.
    I think you're wrong about CNN; and ABC, NBC, CBS, and all the major newspapers would be all over it as well.

    And, I assure you, the hearing about it would've been on the front page of the NYTimes.

    http://publiceditor.blogs.nytimes.co...-of-the-times/

  8. #18
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    I love the shit-eating shrug from the bitch in the middle after Krauthammer nails the issue bullseye:


  9. #19
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    Giuliani making Clark look like a bumbling idiot:


  10. #20
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    You might find this informational. http://thinkprogress.org/security/20...azi/?mobile=nc

    Shockingly, it appears as though Fox News was misinformed and/or deliberating misleading people about the situation.
    -end of thread-

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