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  1. #41
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    I do believe Obama is a smart man. He has helped to reduce some of the antagonism towards the US that Bush and his crew created.

    BBC poll: Rest of world favours Obama

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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    Well, if there's one criteria that should really matter, it's what the rest of the world thinks.

  3. #43
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    I am surprised that it seems like most people in this thread voting for Romney are doing so because of economic reasons but seem to dismiss the social reasons. Is it that they don't matter to you, or don't matter as much?

    For me, voting for Obama was essentially a moral imperative because I could not in good conscience support a candidate who is so questionable when it comes to birth control, abortion, women's pay equality, gay marriage, and healthcare (I have a genetic condition which makes getting health insurance extremely difficult for me). I feel like Romney's stance threatens basic social equality rights, and to me, without those, a government is not really worth saving. It seems like a case of backwards priorities. Maybe Romney could speed economic recovery - though I tend to distrust him in general because he seems haughty - maybe. But to me it's just not worth the potential losses of social freedoms.

    For those of you voting Romney, what do you feel about women's rights, reproductive health, people with preexisting conditions and healthcare, and gay rights? Are you a woman or gay, and do you need healthcare? Or does it seem easy to overlook because you've never been in a position of being denied equality? (edit, that was not supposed to come off nasty)

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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    I am surprised that it seems like most people in this thread voting for Romney are doing so because of economic reasons but seem to dismiss the social reasons. Is it that they don't matter to you, or don't matter as much?

    For me, voting for Obama was essentially a moral imperative because I could not in good conscience support a candidate who is so questionable when it comes to birth control, abortion, women's pay equality, gay marriage, and healthcare (I have a genetic condition which makes getting health insurance extremely difficult for me). I feel like Romney's stance threatens basic social equality rights, and to me, without those, a government is not really worth saving. It seems like a case of backwards priorities. Maybe Romney could speed economic recovery - though I tend to distrust him in general because he seems haughty - maybe. But to me it's just not worth the potential losses of social freedoms.

    For those of you voting Romney, what do you feel about women's rights, reproductive health, people with preexisting conditions and healthcare, and gay rights? Are you a woman or gay, and do you need healthcare? Or is it just easy to write off because you've never actually been in a position of being denied equality?
    I think those arguments are all basically a joke, except for preexisting conditions.

  5. #45
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    I think those arguments are all basically a joke, except for preexisting conditions.
    Why? A joke on whose part?

    I have to admit that as a woman I feel genuinely threatened by the fact that some prominent politicians are advocating, with some degree of popular support, for the denial of birth control, abortion, and so on. I dunno, most women I speak to seem to echo this feeling, and a lot of men don't seem to understand it. My SO shakes his head when I say this and tells me that he understands why I would feel concerned but I shouldn't worry because it's just not going to happen. I don't understand his seeming ease at the prospect, either. The only solution I can come to is because it's not his body and his rights that are being threatened. Unlikely though it may be, if this crap DID come to pass, he wouldn't be directly affected. I would. I don't like the feeling of being on the verge of being a second-class citizen. I can't believe more people aren't up in arms about it.

  6. #46
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    For those of you voting Romney, what do you feel about women's rights, reproductive health, people with preexisting conditions and healthcare, and gay rights? Are you a woman or gay, and do you need healthcare? Or does it seem easy to overlook because you've never been in a position of being denied equality? (edit, that was not supposed to come off nasty)
    Sure I've been denied equality because I'm not a minority or a woman. You may not realize the extent to which, at one time, there were quotas and reverse discrimination from a career perspective. I do need healthcare insurance and pay through the nose for it. Reproductive health? - can't say much there.

    I just think he'll be a better leader, better for the economy and with respect to healthcare, he won't be able to get away with something that's going to harm the people you mention because it will be too unpopular.

    Obama really had no qualifications to be President to begin with.

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    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    My SO shakes his head when I say this and tells me that he understands why I would feel concerned but I shouldn't worry because it's just not going to happen.
    Exactly

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  8. #48
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    I just think he'll be a better leader, better for the economy and with respect to healthcare, he won't be able to get away with something that's going to harm the people you mention because it will be too unpopular.

    Obama really had no qualifications to be President to begin with.
    The highlighted is wishful thinking. We saw plenty pushed through in the last administration that was unpopular and adversely affects large groups of people, many provisions of the "Patriot Act" for one. Perhaps my greatest disappointment in Obama is that he has not reversed more of this and been a better advocate for civil liberties. I will agree his qualifications were limited, even though I voted for him last time and will do so again. It is amazing what he has managed to do with so little experience and so many inherited problems. I can't say Romney's economic plan would not work; on the other hand, he hasn't really had one until Ryan joined the ticket, and they still have not given out enough details for a good evaluation. I have heard the same complaint about Obama, but at least he has a track record. Romney seems bent on disavowing the most significant accomplishments in his record, and saying whatever he feels it will take to be elected. He has changed positions on too many issues without offering good explanations as to why.

    The economy is slowly starting to turn around. Yes, people complain that the recovery has not been faster, but a complete cure could not have been effected by anyone in less than 4 years, and it might even take more than 8. In short, replacing Obama now is like changing horse in the middle of the race, even though he might look (to mix metaphors) more like the tortoise than the hare.

    As for the opinion of other nations, we should pay it the same regard an individual will give to the opinions of others. One should not be governed by it, but it is useful feedback when trying to understand others unlike oneself and to get along with them better. This is something the U.S. sorely needed to do. Romney's accusations about Obama's "apology tour" are seriously exaggerating, but the U.S. does have things to apologize for. This is much less the recent actions of the Bush administration than the actions of decades past when we played kingmaker in the middle east, installing and supporting governments that would protect our oil interests. In many respects, we are now simply reaping what we sowed in the early part of the last century. I was disappointed that neither candidate provided this historical perspective when the topic came up in the debate. Madeleine Albright seemed to understand. Hillary probably does, too, but even she does not talk about it.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    A joke on whose part?
    The arguments are a joke.

    They do not hold up against serious scrutiny.

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    Why?
    Each has their own reason(s).

    Do you want me to go into each one?

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    I have to admit that as a woman I feel genuinely threatened by the fact that some prominent politicians are advocating, with some degree of popular support, for the denial of birth control, abortion, and so on.
    Ok, first problem.

    Don't conflate Romney with this conveniently generalized "prominent politicians". I mean, who are these "prominent" politicians? Some dipshit Congressmen previously unknown outside of their state, who no one on the national scene gives a fuck about, and who Romney, and any other thinking Republican, has immediately distanced himself from as soon as they've opened their mouths with their retarded bullshit?

    And when did Romney advocate denial of birth control? In fact, when did anyone?

    And when did Romney signal that prohibition of abortion would be any serious part of his goals? All signs have pointed in the opposite direction. He used to be pro-choice, and the only reason he's had to reverse on that position is because you can't get the Republican nomination without, nominally, being pro-life. And he has repeatedly given signals that this issue will not be on his agenda.

    And what is this once again conveniently generalized "so on"?

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    I dunno, most women I speak to seem to echo this feeling, and a lot of men don't seem to understand it. My SO shakes his head when I say this and tells me that he understands why I would feel concerned but I shouldn't worry because it's just not going to happen.
    Well, your SO is right.

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    I don't understand his seeming ease at the prospect, either.
    It's because he's correct in knowing that what you're speaking of is not going to happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    The only solution I can come to is because it's not his body and his rights that are being threatened.
    Well, you're wrong. I'm not saying there's no sense to what you're saying. There is. But see above.

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    Unlikely though it may be, if this crap DID come to pass, he wouldn't be directly affected. I would.
    We'd be more affected than you're giving credit here.

    And this is no small part of the reason why it will never pass.

    I assure you: if abortion were to be made illegal, not only would most women oppose it, but so would most men.

    All in, that makes for a significant and permanent supermajority on the pro-choice side of the issue, and it will never be defeated.

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    I don't like the feeling of being on the verge of being a second-class citizen.
    And I certainly assure you, it is never going to be that men are allowed to have abortions, and women are not.

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    I can't believe more people aren't up in arms about it.
    Some of us don't like to waste our time/energy with things we know are not going to transpire.

  10. #50
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    Sure I've been denied equality because I'm not a minority or a woman. You may not realize the extent to which, at one time, there were quotas and reverse discrimination from a career perspective. I do need healthcare insurance and pay through the nose for it. Reproductive health? - can't say much there.

    I just think he'll be a better leader, better for the economy and with respect to healthcare, he won't be able to get away with something that's going to harm the people you mention because it will be too unpopular.

    Obama really had no qualifications to be President to begin with.
    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    Exactly
    Ok, so you see it more as a probability/weighted outcomes thing than a moral hardline thing. Makes sense. Thanks for explaining.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Ok, first problem.

    Don't conflate Romney with this conveniently generalized "prominent politicians".

    When did Romney advocate denial of birth control? In fact, when did anyone?

    And when did Romney signal that prohibition of abortion would be any serious part of his goals? All signs have pointed in the opposite direction. He used to be pro-choice, and the only reason he's had to reverse on that position is because you can't get the Republican nomination without, nominally, being pro-life.

    And what is this once again conveniently generalized "so on"?

    Who are these prominent politicians? Some Congressmen previously unknown outside of their state, who no one on the national scene gives a fuck about, who Romney, and any other thinking Republican, has immediately distanced himself from as soon as they've opened their mouths with their retarded bullshit?
    Well, but that's sort of the thing about Romney, he seems to be vague and shapeshifting with his opinions. He says he'll shut down Planned Parenthood ASAP but then somewhere else he says he doesn't oppose contraception. In regards to the Blunt amendment, first he said he opposed it then he said he misunderstood and supports it. With abortion, he repeatedly says he is pro-life (as far as I understand, that means anti-abortion) but then he had that quote in Iowa of "no legislation with regards to abortion that I'm familiar with that would become part of my agenda." I don't understand where his boundaries are and that makes me uncomfortable. And as President, he would be leader of all those not-currently-so-prominent politicians. I don't have a good sense of the future in terms of social policies with him, and with what he may or may not do. And it's to the point in campaigning where it's important to make the widest appeal, so of course he and Obama are both going to lean more moderate right now than they would probably actually operate as President. My "so on" includes fair pay and gay marriage.

    And I certainly assure you, it is never going to be that men are allowed to have abortions, and women aren't.

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