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  1. #21
    Per Ardua Metamorphosis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsWhatHeSaid View Post
    Without conceding that your facts are even correct, how does anything you said justify the atrociousness of the act or the hypocrisy in decrying terrorism, yet actively participating in it?
    You don't become and remain a super power by being nice to everyone. War isn't guided by morals. Things like the Geneva Convention exist to protect your own people, not to uphold moral value. Hypocrisy is a part of politics. Everyone says that they want to know everything our government does, but they really don't. No one wants to know about all the dirty deeds done to keep us safe, so long as we stay safe.

    Our war isn't against terrorism. It's against anti-U.S. terrorism. You don't get votes and maintain the appearance of moral superiority over your foes by telling the whole truth.

    The act of terrorism seems atrocious whenever its planes flying into buildings on U.S. soil but the Phalangist massacre of the Palestinian refugee camps didn't exactly stop our support of Israel did it? We hate terrorism when its used against us but that doesn't stop it from being a necessary tool in some parts of the world. You don't train third world militant groups and then tell them to only fight conventionally against a force that is vastly more powerful than they are. Torture is horrible but if it saves a thousand american lives most people wouldn't complain.

    I'm a semi-isolationist so I definitely don't support everything that's going on. I just think that your view is naive.
    "You will always be fond of me. I represent to you all the sins you never had the courage to commit."

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    than to serve and obey them. - David Hume

  2. #22
    Senior Member ThatsWhatHeSaid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metamorphosis View Post
    You don't become and remain a super power by being nice to everyone. War isn't guided by morals.
    I said the actions were atrocious. You seem to have taken that to mean that I think the actions are unexpected. I didn't say they were unexpected, especially from the current administration. By confusing the two, you're implying that the fact that terrorism is something commonplace and necessary to keep America on top has something to do with the moral quality ("atrociousness") of that action. Conflating what's customary with what's ethical is a pretty heinous mistake in reasoning and reeks of the naturalistic fallacy. Shame on you. That kind of sloppy reasoning is what leads people's aggression to go unchecked by abandoning their moral responsibilities just to maintain their status among others. It's like a spouse who feels justified in insulting and hurting the other because it's become required for him or her to maintain their power in a relationship. One thing has nothing to do with the other.

  3. #23
    The Black Knight Domino's Avatar
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    Watching C-SPAN has given me a facial tic. Partisan politics rule the House and the Senate. Bush will never see impeachment. He's reeling out his final days in office and then the fall-out from the Congressional/Repres. filibustering contest will become someone else's problem.
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  4. #24
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    I was wondering how long it would take someone to point out that the Democrats have the majority.

    They still won't pass it. If they weren't willing it impeach Cheney last year, why would they impeach Bush this election year of all times?
    It is sad though that no one in the bush administration will be impeached.
    It's basically the ultimate advertisement that the legistlative branch is a legion of impotent stooges. You could take a crap on the consitution right in front of them and they won't do a thing about it.

    I'm going to give the Democrats the benefit of the doubt so long as they can be vetoed, but if Obama becomes president, then I'm going to have very serious expectations for them.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  5. #25
    veteran attention whore Jeffster's Avatar
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    Pfft. He's not almost impeached just because Looney Dennis introduces a resolution. Didn't John Conyers already do that a couple years ago?

  6. #26
    Per Ardua Metamorphosis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsWhatHeSaid View Post
    I said the actions were atrocious. You seem to have taken that to mean that I think the actions are unexpected. I didn't say they were unexpected, especially from the current administration. By confusing the two, you're implying that the fact that terrorism is something commonplace and necessary to keep America on top has something to do with the moral quality ("atrociousness") of that action.
    Not at all. I was saying that whether they are "atrocious" or not is totally irrelevant. War is atrocious. Perhaps supporting some terrorist groups is less atrocious than conventional war between two powerful nations, or less atrocious than being attacked.

    Conflating what's customary with what's ethical is a pretty heinous mistake in reasoning and reeks of the naturalistic fallacy. Shame on you.
    No, I'm saying that it could be customary because it could be necessary.

    That kind of sloppy reasoning is what leads people's aggression to go unchecked by abandoning their moral responsibilities just to maintain their status among others. It's like a spouse who feels justified in insulting and hurting the other because it's become required for him or her to maintain their power in a relationship. One thing has nothing to do with the other.
    It's that kind of reasoning that helps you enjoy the life you have while other people do the dirty work in horrible conditions for you. It's easy to insult the method of the maintanence of power when you have it. If you lived in a subjugated society, though, you might not have the same opinion.

    Is it possible that they just fucked up? Sure. But it's impossible to judge the action without judging the reason and the result.

    Covert action should not be confused with missionary work.
    "You will always be fond of me. I represent to you all the sins you never had the courage to commit."

    Reason is, and ought only to be the slave of the passions, and can never pretend to any other office
    than to serve and obey them. - David Hume

  7. #27
    Circus Maximus Sarcasticus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by "?" View Post
    The last time I looked Nancy Pelosi was still Speaker, ergo the Democrats control the House. It is my understanding that they will proceed on the matter in some shape or fashion starting next week.
    Oops, of course. You're right. Okay, so the process can begin, but then needs a supermajority of Senate votes. So I stand by what I said.

  8. #28
    Senior Member "?"'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarcasticus View Post
    Oops, of course. You're right. Okay, so the process can begin, but then needs a supermajority of Senate votes. So I stand by what I said.
    Totally agree that it's too late even if they started a process today.

  9. #29
    Senior Member ThatsWhatHeSaid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metamorphosis View Post
    Not at all. I was saying that whether they are "atrocious" or not is totally irrelevant. War is atrocious. Perhaps supporting some terrorist groups is less atrocious than conventional war between two powerful nations, or less atrocious than being attacked.
    You're not even making sense now. How can an observation be irrelevant? Irrelevant to WHAT? I wasn't making an argument, just an observation. It's like someone tasting ice cream, saying it tastes good, and here you come telling them that what they said is irrelevant.

    ...
    I like having discussions with people who are looking for truth, not just to prove that they're right. Based on the rest of this post and the last, I'm thinking you're the type of person who will backpedal for hours to avoid admitting a mistake. That'll lead me to do the same, and in the end, we'll both be exhausted and none the wiser. I'm bowing out. You can have the last word if you want it.

  10. #30
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Metamorphosis is an INTJ and a Libertarian...

    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsWhatHeSaid View Post
    I like having discussions with people who are looking for truth, not just to prove that they're right. Based on the rest of this post and the last, I'm thinking you're the type of person who will backpedal for hours to avoid admitting a mistake. That'll lead me to do the same, and in the end, we'll both be exhausted and none the wiser. I'm bowing out. You can have the last word if you want it.
    ...Isn't this assumed?
    Last edited by Magic Poriferan; 06-11-2008 at 01:23 PM. Reason: spelling error
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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