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  1. #51
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xisnotx View Post
    Theoretical.

    Guy is sleeping with girl. Girl gets pregnant. Guy is stuck. Turns out, girl got pregnant on purpose. Doesn't matter, he's stuck.
    Guy does one of two things:
    a) He pushes for abortion; threatens with lawyers.
    b) He denies his involvement in the situation; pushes for a type of non financial custody of the child.

    Both "douchey" things to do, but can you blame him?

    (To the extent of punishing him?)

    Those two are just less extreme examples of the thread example.

    Just that the two are on one side of the law, and the one is on the other..

    It depends on if cells are people. People are cells, that is, people are made up of them, but are cells people?
    Your illustration is far more than theoretical; it happens to guys quite often. This is why male birth control is so important, so a man can unilaterally make sure that his actions will not result in an unintended pregnancy.

    This is one of few areas where true gender equality is elusive. Humanity evolved/was designed in such a way that women carry a fetus until it can become separate through birth. After birth, anyone can care for it. Until birth, it needs its mother. This places physical burdens on mothers that far exceed the comparable demands on fathers. The flip side, though, is that it gives mothers the ultimate control over what happens. If men want to be sure they have a say, they must either know their partner well and have earned her trust, or make sure conception never occurs.

    And no, cells are not people. Groups of cells are not people. The proto-people called embryos and fetuses are not people, however much one might wish to call them that. Wanting something to be so does not make it so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Oh Lordy, only an INTJ could say this with a straight face.
    It can be a dirty job, but someone has to do it.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    What? Do you actually think it is (or should be) possible to take someone to court to force them to abort their baby?
    What planet are you from?
    And how is *he* "stuck" anyway?
    You know how, when you're looking forward to travelling to a place far away, and right before the trip, it's cancelled?
    It doesn't mean the trip won't ever happen, but if things come up, and it's better to not go, (and you have the means to not go...lol), then, why not not go? It's only best you not go...

    The converse being, he stays on the trip (doesn't go), (or if he does, he's liable, in money, which is a different area)...

    His liabilities, though, have limits, as his decisions factored into it less.

    That's what he'd be protecting...

    Whether financial liabilities or otherwise.

  3. #53
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Your illustration is far more than theoretical; it happens to guys quite often. This is why male birth control is so important, so a man can unilaterally make sure that his actions will not result in an unintended pregnancy.

    This is one of few areas where true gender equality is elusive. Humanity evolved/was designed in such a way that women carry a fetus until it can become separate through birth. After birth, anyone can care for it. Until birth, it needs its mother. This places physical burdens on mothers that far exceed the comparable demands on fathers. The flip side, though, is that it gives mothers the ultimate control over what happens. If men want to be sure they have a say, they must either know their partner well and have earned her trust, or make sure conception never occurs.
    I completely agree.

    xisnotx, the question of whether cells are people is a red herring, because the bottom line is that they don't have to be to differentiate between your examples and what happened in this case. The difference between what you describe and what happened in this case has nothing to do with cells. It has to do with one person medicating another against their will, resulting in a risk of bodily harm to the medicated person and the loss of.. if nothing else, her property (the fetus she was carrying and anticipated giving birth to and raising). Even if the fetus is not considered a person, harm was done, bodily integrity was threatened and in fact violated. In your examples, no one's bodily integrity is threatened or violated in any way.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    This is one of few areas where true gender equality is elusive.
    ...then it follows that no matter how the one gender acts (or reacts) the other will feel (and consequently act) slighted.
    ...that it's just the way things are.

    so, in contexts of the law, what's best?

    in the example in the article, the guy was charged for assaulting his wife. I'd say that's valid...

    If, however, there were no possible repercussions to her physically, I'd say it wasn't "attempted murder"...because the cells (if we assent to cells not being people)* aren't murder-able...anymore so than any other cells...
    He'd still be in trouble though...but not "death row" trouble..

    *(if we assent to cells not being people)-I don't, necessarily, I think other definitions apply.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    her property
    It's their property, and I'm going to go outside now...

  6. #56
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xisnotx View Post
    It's their property, and I'm going to go outside now...
    Not while it's inside her body. I'm sorry, but that's reality. It is something growing inside her, and one human being has no say over what happens inside another. Nor should they.

  7. #57
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Bottom line- once a pregnancy is established, what's happening for the next 40 weeks is happening inside the body of a woman. That is not a technicality.
    I don't think it registered the first time.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    I have no idea to what extent you're serious in the rest of this, but this is a horrible analogy.
    It's maybe a bit sophisticated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Not while it's inside her body. I'm sorry, but that's reality. It is something growing inside her, and one human being has no say over what happens inside another. Nor should they.
    I agree.

  9. #59
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    It's my mind, so I disapprove of it. I don't care what the actual charges are; the guy should be locked up for a long time.

  10. #60
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xisnotx View Post
    ...then it follows that no matter how the one gender acts (or reacts) the other will feel (and consequently act) slighted.
    ...that it's just the way things are.

    so, in contexts of the law, what's best?

    in the example in the article, the guy was charged for assaulting his wife. I'd say that's valid...

    If, however, there were no possible repercussions to her physically, I'd say it wasn't "attempted murder"...because the cells (if we assent to cells not being people)* aren't murder-able...anymore so than any other cells....
    I agree - it is not attempted murder. Should the woman even have died from the medication snuck to her, it would be more like manslaughter. Several people have posted details of how the law handles such a case in various locations. There are differences, which highlight well the divergent interpretations at play. What is legal is not always the same as what is right, moral, or in the best interests of anyone, though.

    Yes, there is always the potential that someone will feel slighted. That is part of human nature. Ultimately, each of us can only control his/her own actions. A woman can use birth control, or not use it, or not use it and tell her partner she did. If a man wants to prevent conception, he can use a condom (correctly), or just abstain.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

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