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  1. #141
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnyboy View Post
    Many men acknowledge the helplessness and anxiety that likely drove him to this extreme, and many women seem flabbergasted (or frightened *their words, not mine*) that the men would even bring up such things.
    I was reminded of this argument :"it's my helplessness and anxiety - that YOU caused by daring to get pregnant - that made me do it" when I read this account of a mother whose partner strangled her until she lost consciousness and then gouged out her eyes and broke her jaw and nose.

    She said she could not understand why he had not tried to help her. She said Jenkin had held her prisoner for 12 hours after the attack, adding: "He was blaming me saying 'it's all your fault – I am going to do years for this'.
    "It's all your fault". "You bring this on yourself." Some men are incapable of being accountable for their actions. I hope to God it's not that "many men" though.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  2. #142
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    The problem is that most people here don't even know what the fundamental problem is.

    The problem is not that unwanted babies come into existence and become a problem for a father and/or mother.

    The fundamental problem is that there are people who have sex who do not want children and continue to not want children after conception.
    The problem is that there are people (men and women) who do not want children, yet do not take the necessary precautions to avoid or prevent conception.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Not wanting children is a rational response to an overpopulated world with finite resources. Wanting sex is not really a choice, it's a biological imperative. Hmmm. Does that seem like a very "intelligent design"...?
    Not wanting children is also the rational response to feeling unprepared or unwilling to shoulder the responsibility of caring for one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    If we are merely aiming to be rational then we have set our sights very low.
    What other criteria would you suggest? Rationality is necessary especially for important decisions like whether to become a parent. Unfortunately, far too many people cannot exercise this minimal level of oversight of their own behavior.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  3. #143
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iwakar View Post
    Apart from the unspeakable heinousness,
    we fukin won boys

  4. #144
    null Jonny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    I was reminded of this argument :"it's my helplessness and anxiety - that YOU caused by daring to get pregnant - that made me do it" when I read this account of a mother whose partner strangled her until she lost consciousness and then gouged out her eyes and broke her jaw and nose.



    "It's all your fault". "You bring this on yourself." Some men are incapable of being accountable for their actions. I hope to God it's not that "many men" though.
    I don't think I'm being clear. It isn't an argument in support of his actions, it's an acknowledgement of the motivations behind them. Further, it isn't putting the blame upon the woman for getting pregnant, it is a discussion of how her choice to keep the child adversely affects his life. The fundamental issue is that her choices have an impact on his life, and he doesn't have a say. The difference, however, is that most men who don't want a child but are forced to have one due to back luck and a woman's choice cope with it and move forward; they don't devise ways to hurt another person to get what they want.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  5. #145
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    So, the conclusion I've drawn from this thread is that, should I find myself in an unplanned pregnancy situation in which there is disagreement over the desired outcome, I should just go ahead and kill the man first since he's a more immediate threat to my health even than the damn baby.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  6. #146
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnyboy View Post
    It isn't an argument in support of his actions, it's an acknowledgement of the motivations behind them.
    No. It's your GUESS at his motivations, based on the fact that you choose to identify with him, a criminal, over her, a victim of crime. That's your prerogative, of course. But it doesn't qualify you to present mitigating evidence.

    Further, it isn't putting the blame upon the woman for getting pregnant, it is a discussion of how her choice to keep the child adversely affects his life. The fundamental issue is that her choices have an impact on his life, and he doesn't have a say.
    Again, no, you are just guessing/making excuses. How exactly, is it going to adversely affect his life? He is a wealthy man, you think he did this because he can't afford child support? Please.
    Besides which, THEY WERE HIS CHOICES. His choice to have unprotected sex. His choice to commit 4 acts of attempted murder.
    That's like saying if you steal from someone and they threaten to go to the police, you're entitled to kill them because their actions might put your future liberty in jeopardy and you "don't have a say". FFS! I can't even believe it's necessary to spell this out.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  7. #147
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    You don't understand irony either, do you? Pity.
    I'm not sure whether you don't know how to argue or whether you just don't want to. The good news is that if you don't know how you can rely on tips I've provided below.

    Restating your argument in terms designed to show you just how absurd it is, is not strawman.
    Argument tip #1: Know your fallacies.

    Above you have written pretty much the definition of a strawman argument in practice. When you added to my original statement the idea that belief was connected to the existence of problems you constructed the strawman.

    It's hard for me to come up with an analogy you can grasp, it seems.
    Argument tip #2: You don't actually lose any ground by conceding a meaningless point. Moreover, it makes you look silly pouncing on a meaningless concession and treating it as a weakness.

    Just plain wrong. One can have a desired outcome and no design for obtaining it. Witness the state of most people in your great nation.
    Argument tip #3: Conversely winning a meaningless point doesn't mean you've gained any ground.

    It doesn't matter if problems exist independent of design (typically in such a scenario the main problem is lack of design) if they can't exist independent of purpose. Purpose is inherent in intelligent design and is sort of the point of calling it "intelligent" design. Thus my argument still stands. This can only help you (a very little bit) if you plan to argue that there is a purpose to the universe, but no design.

    This is all a pointless aside, anyway. What I said to you was that the design (were there actually to be one) is patently not intelligent (since it implicitly contains the seeds of the very problems we have been discussing). And you can't argue with that.
    Argument tip #4: It helps to know what is and is not arguable. Simply because you believe something to be true doesn't mean it's unarguable.

    For instance there are things called alternate explanations. You work with them computers and e- tech stuff, right? I'm sure you understand that there are two sources of problems: design flaw and user error. If you were paying attention at the beginning you would have realized that I explain that the problems in society arise from what you would call user error.

    I'm still not sure whether you don't know how to argue or don't want to argue. My guess is that you just feel more comfortable defending yourself rather than your ideas and so you easily slip into this very uncharitable and abrasive means of debate with little content and a whole 'lotta spin.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  8. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    No. It's your GUESS at his motivations, based on the fact that you choose to identify with him, a criminal, over her, a victim of crime. That's your prerogative, of course. But it doesn't qualify you to present mitigating evidence.

    Again, no, you are just guessing/making excuses. How exactly, is it going to adversely affect his life? He is a wealthy man, you think he did this because he can't afford child support? Please.
    Besides which, THEY WERE HIS CHOICES. His choice to have unprotected sex. His choice to commit 4 acts of attempted murder.
    That's like saying if you steal from someone and they threaten to go to the police, you're entitled to kill them because their actions might put your future liberty in jeopardy and you "don't have a say". FFS! I can't even believe it's necessary to spell this out.
    Miss, I think it's time for you to join everybody else and move on from this specific horrible case to the underlying issue here, which Jonnyboy has already adressed. A pregnancy is not a mess that cannot be cleaned up using legal means. If you are a pro-lifer, you can give the child up for adoption. If the man never intended to get the woman pregnant and he never sent ambiguous signals about this*, the man should - within a certain amount of time - be allowed to absolve himself of all rights and responsibilities with respect to the potential child. Done this way, the woman will have time to evaluate her situation - that is, consider raising the child without the father's financial and emotional support. She will be able to make a choice fully aware of the facts of her situation. Does she think she will be incapable of supporting the child financially on her own? No worries - abortion or adoption are still choices that are available to her. Does she want to raise the child regardless? Godspeed.
    This way, nobody is forcing anybody.

    *This solution is really only applicable when the two people don't have children together already, and when the man was under the impression that proper measures had been taken to prevent a pregnancy. It shouldn't be applicable in cases where both of the parties made no effort to prevent pregnancy by using birth control.

  9. #149
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    I'm not sure whether you don't know how to argue or whether you just don't want to.
    I'm not interested in arguing with close-minded, patronising people about topics which have already been argued to death. It's a waste of my time.

    But that's some pretty good advice you have there. You should try taking it. Instead of preaching to the unconvertible.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  10. #150
    Superwoman Red Herring's Avatar
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    The good life is one inspired by love and guided by knowledge. Neither love without knowledge, nor knowledge without love can produce a good life. - Bertrand Russell
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