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  1. #131
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Whether you doubt it or not doesn't stop it being rational.
    If we are merely aiming to be rational then we have set our sights very low.

    what nonsense. Are you even convincing yourself?
    We must have very different ideas of what nonsense is.
    Take the weakest thing in you
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    And always hold on when you get love
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  2. #132
    Symbolic Herald Vasilisa's Avatar
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    Cease the personal attacks, flames, and namecalling in this thread. Any further will earn repercussions.
    the formless thing which gives things form!
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  3. #133
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    If we are merely aiming to be rational then we have set our sights very low.
    You keep setting up these strawmen. Do you know you are doing that?

    We must have very different ideas of what nonsense is.
    I wholeheartedly agree.
    However, the suggestion that there can be no problems in a world where there is no design is easily proven to be nonsense. (Even were it not self-evident.)

    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Well, if you think 'quality of life' is insufficient grounds for the desiriability of replacement-level birth rates, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that point (though I maintain that the current population density in the UK is not a problem when carrying capacity and capital resources are taken into account)....globally, however, the production lost in the UK due to a smaller market and less workers is just going to move to countries that consume more resources and produce more pollution per unit of production, so sacrificing quality of life in th UK is not likely to positively impact the global situation even in the absence of mass immigration from developing countries artificially extending high birth rates in those countries.
    The current population is only not a problem because people are no longer having 13 children (as my great-grandmother did). The corollary is that we have an ageing population. However, I believe this is an easier problem to solve than to suppose we can keep multiplying in number indefinitely. It's moot anyway, since its the problem we *have* to solve.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  4. #134
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    You keep setting up these strawmen. Do you know you are doing that?
    Should I take that to mean you concede that rationality is not the only standard by which to judge society's actions?

    I wholeheartedly agree.
    However, the suggestion that there can be no problems in a world where there is no design is easily proven to be nonsense. (Even were it not self-evident.)
    Feel free to prove me wrong if it's that easy.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  5. #135
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Feel free to prove me wrong if it's that easy.
    Why would I? According to you, all we need to do is stop believing in intelligent design and all our problems magically disappear.

    I'm not quite that optimistic, but it would certainly be a start.

    However, any engineer will tell you that a flawed or missing design always leads to more and more costly problems.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  6. #136
    FRACTALICIOUS phobik's Avatar
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    To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.
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    Music provides one of the clearest examples of a much deeper relation between mathematics and human experience.

  7. #137
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    The current population is only not a problem because people are no longer having 13 children (as my great-grandmother did). The corollary is that we have an ageing population.

    However, I believe this is an easier problem to solve than to suppose we can keep multiplying in number indefinitely.
    Exactly, the UK has likely reached a point where replacement-level birth rates are optimal (in terms of living standards) compared to high total fertility rates....the problem is not that the UK is aging, but that there is no population equilibrium (the natural increase is negative rather than close to zero). Like I said, the situation is not yet at the crisis levels found elsewhere, but there is no reason to abstain from having children out of a sense of social or environmental responsibility.

    I wouldn't be too sure (except in extreme cases like Niger), global fertility rates have dropped rapidly in recent years*, while total fertility rates in developed countries with sub-replacement fertility levels have demonstrated extreme difficulty in producing even modest recoveries....most have continued to decline to crisis levels.

    *In most of the developing world, the problem lies not so much in the direction or rapidity of fertility decline, but rather the fact that change started about a generation too late for optimal results. Some countries (like Angola) have breathing room due to low population density per agricultural capacity, while others (like Nigeria) are already near the breaking point.

  8. #138
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Why would I?
    I'm sorry. I thought you were here to engage in constructive argument and dialogue. Typically what occurs in such a conversation is one person will make an assertion then the other person will challenge the assertion and then the first person explains the reasoning behind the original assertion in an attempt to overcome the challenge to the assertion and show that it is indeed a reasonable statement.

    But, perhaps I'm mistaken and you have some other motive for posting here and thus see little reason for backing up your assertion.

    According to you,
    I thought you weren't a fan of strawmen?

    all we need to do is stop believing in intelligent design and all our problems magically disappear.
    What a person believes has little to do with whether they have problems or don't have problems. It's dependent on the nature of the universe as to whether people only have perceived problems or problems that exist in reality.

    However, any engineer will tell you that a flawed or missing design always leads to more and more costly problems.
    I don't know what you mean by "missing design." However, in order to have a flawed design you kinda sorta have to have a design in the first place. Moreover, the very definition of a problem is "a desired outcome coupled with an apparent deficiency, doubt or inconsistency that prevents the outcome from taking place." Without intelligent design there is no desired outcome and thus no problem.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  9. #139
    Ginkgo
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    Why then 'tis none to you; for there is nothing either good or
    bad, but thinking makes it so. To me it is a prison.

  10. #140
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    I'm sorry. I thought you were here to engage in constructive argument and dialogue. Typically what occurs in such a conversation is one person will make an assertion then the other person will challenge the assertion and then the first person explains the reasoning behind the original assertion in an attempt to overcome the challenge to the assertion and show that it is indeed a reasonable statement.

    But, perhaps I'm mistaken and you have some other motive for posting here and thus see little reason for backing up your assertion.
    You don't understand irony either, do you? Pity.

    I thought you weren't a fan of strawmen?
    Restating your argument in terms designed to show you just how absurd it is, is not strawman. However, you seem to be blind on this particular subject, too invested in your own position to see reason.

    What a person believes has little to do with whether they have problems or don't have problems. It's dependent on the nature of the universe as to whether people only have perceived problems or problems that exist in reality.
    Something we can agree on.

    I don't know what you mean by "missing design."
    It's hard for me to come up with an analogy you can grasp, it seems.
    However, in order to have a flawed design you kinda sorta have to have a design in the first place. Moreover, the very definition of a problem is "a desired outcome coupled with an apparent deficiency, doubt or inconsistency that prevents the outcome from taking place." Without intelligent design there is no desired outcome and thus no problem.
    Just plain wrong. One can have a desired outcome and no design for obtaining it. Witness the state of most people in your great nation.

    This is all a pointless aside, anyway. What I said to you was that the design (were there actually to be one) is patently not intelligent (since it implicitly contains the seeds of the very problems we have been discussing). And you can't argue with that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

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