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  1. #111
    null Jonny's Avatar
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    Actually, I'll go one step further. Looking online, an abortion costs roughly $550. So, I'll put that in a fund for the baby. Assuming 3% interest per year, that works out to $3.36 per month in child support until the brat is 18.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  2. #112
    Ghost Monkey Soul Vizconde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnyboy View Post
    That's the woman's problem, should she choose to not have an abortion.
    So the 'right to choose' should transmute to an obligation to kill?
    I redact everything I have written or will write on this forum prior to, subsequent with and or after the fact of its writing. For entertainment purposes only and not to be taken seriously nor literally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    Spamtar - a strange combination of boorish drunkeness and erudite discussions, or what I call "an Irish academic"

  3. #113
    Ghost Monkey Soul Vizconde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnyboy View Post
    That's the woman's problem, should she choose to not have an abortion.
    So the 'right to choose' should transmute to an obligation to kill?
    I redact everything I have written or will write on this forum prior to, subsequent with and or after the fact of its writing. For entertainment purposes only and not to be taken seriously nor literally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    Spamtar - a strange combination of boorish drunkeness and erudite discussions, or what I call "an Irish academic"

  4. #114
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnyboy View Post
    Actually, I'll go one step further. Looking online, an abortion costs roughly $550. So, I'll put that in a fund for the baby. Assuming 3% interest per year, that works out to $3.36 per month in child support until the brat is 18.
    Legalities and/or the "fairness" of a woman having more choices than a man during a <40 week window notwithstanding, I find this absolutely repulsive.

  5. #115
    null Jonny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vizconde View Post
    So the 'right to choose' should transmute to an obligation to kill?
    Sorry, should be "That's the woman's problem, should she choose to not have an abortion or put the child up for adoption."
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  6. #116
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    The problem is that most people here don't even know what the fundamental problem is.

    The problem is not that unwanted babies come into existence and become a problem for a father and/or mother.

    The fundamental problem is that there are people who have sex who do not want children and continue to not want children after conception. Indeed, far to often there are parents who do not want their children for the duration of their lives and yet they wonder why they are abandoned to nursing homes when they themselves become infantile.

    Of course there is little the law can do to solve the fundamental problem and unfortunately far too many people have little interest in solutions that do not require the force of law.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  7. #117
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Women can abort and put children they don't want up for adoption. Men do not have that option. That is the source of this problem, inequality under the law.
    No, this is one of the few inequalities inherent in our biology, at least until we have male gestation or artificial wombs,

    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    There is often this assumption that people are not allowed to complain or express frustration. People generally do not choose which role they play in the reproductive process, so "paying a price" is imposed upon people. There is at least a third option here: do not get snipped, maintain complete control over the reproductive process, and complain about it. A person can desire to reproduce without desiring the specific role they play, so it is reasonable and honest to express frustration. Why is this not "allowed"? and who isn't "allowing" it?.
    Exactly what roles do you mean here? Roles in conception (i.e. sex), or care of a child once born? If someone is in complete control of the reproductive process, I don't see what they have to complain about. In any case, complaining is certainly allowed, but rarely productive. Better to act on the frustration to change the situation, at least in your individual circumstance. Otherwise your complaints are the classic tale of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

    Quote Originally Posted by iwakar View Post
    Pretty much. And if ya can't trust her, maybe you ought to keep the condoms in your possession rather than leave 'em at her place.
    If you can't trust her, you probably shouldn't be having sex with her.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  8. #118
    null Jonny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    If you can't trust her, you probably shouldn't be having sex with her.
    How does one know he cannot trust a person until she provides him with evidence to the contrary? Yes, we may observe correlations between sorts of behaviors that have historically been associated with trustworthy and untrustworthy people, but it is still entirely possible to make a mistake.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  9. #119
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnyboy View Post
    How does one know he cannot trust a person until she provides him with evidence to the contrary? Yes, we may observe correlations between sorts of behaviors that have historically been associated with trustworthy and untrustworthy people, but it is still entirely possible to make a mistake.
    Reread the post I replied to. If you don't trust someone enough to leave your condoms with her, don't have sex. There are levels of trust. You can never know someone completely, but if you set your threshold too low, you are asking for trouble.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  10. #120
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Okay, but if we strictly go along this line, it could be argued that no woman could try to "force" the father to recognize the baby and pay child support, since "the baby grew inside her so he is not responsible for his coming to life". It would be better not to use such perspective IMHO, but rather focus on the life of the baby itself. Otherwise, you end up on an antagonistic plane.
    Agreed.
    The reason people are nervous about doing so is because it sets a precedent for considering the right to life of an unborn child. And that's much too uncomfortable a thought for many. ...So we still end up on an antagonistic plane...

    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    The problem is that most people here don't even know what the fundamental problem is.

    The fundamental problem is that there are people who have sex who do not want children and continue to not want children after conception.
    Which is the fundamental problem: wanting sex? Or not wanting children?

    Not wanting children is a rational response to an overpopulated world with finite resources. Wanting sex is not really a choice, it's a biological imperative. Hmmm. Does that seem like a very "intelligent design"...?

    The fundamental problem, in this case, (and in many of the immature responses in this thread), is a lack of appropriate empathy. For example:
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnyboy View Post
    Many men acknowledge the helplessness and anxiety that likely drove him to this extreme, and many women seem flabbergasted (or frightened *their words, not mine*) that the men would even bring up such things. A person's future is not something to be trifled with,
    So...the potential to trifle with the financial future of a person justifies trifling with their ENTIRE future?
    Do you really believe every mother asks for child support? Do you honestly think that every mother who asks for it, gets it?

    It was not helplessness that "drove him to this extreme". It was a sociopath selfishness and sense of entitlement: "I deserve the freedom to fuck you whenever I want to, without taking appropriate contraceptive measures to protect myself, or you, and then, when the inevitable occurs, I am entitled to trample all over your trust in me, in the most intimate of circumstances, imperil your health and destroy your child because, despite the fact that I'm a multimillionaire celebrity chef, your getting pregnant and having a child might conceivably cramp my style."

    If you can "acknowledge" that perspective, there's something very, very wrong with you...

    when it comes to coitus and fetuses, women have a large degree of potential control over a man's future.
    when it comes to coitus and fetuses, biology has an unquestionably larger degree of control over a woman's future. The risks for women are exponentially higher than for men. The law relating to child support (in this country) requires whichever parent is not caring for the child fulltime to pay towards maintenance. It does not discriminate. Do you think it would be fairer if men were obliged to give up work to provide full time care and women provided child support payments?

    My personal perspective is:
    1) I'll pay full price for your birth control or I'll buy condoms.
    2) I'll pay full price for your abortion should you get pregnant.
    3) I will not be obliged to pay money or devote time to a child I do not want. This doesn't mean I won't, but I'll be damned of a judge is going to make my choices for me.
    Well, yeah. You will be damned, since you're not above the law (whatever you might like to think).

    I'd like to hear a woman's perspective on this. Do you think if you accidentally become pregnant and choose to keep the child that the father is obliged to pay child support and/or spend time with the child?
    I think it depends on the circumstances. If you're married or in an LTR, then yes to financial support (I would never force anyone to spend time with a child against their will).
    If it's a casual relationship, then no. Yes, perhaps this makes sex an even riskier business for women, and might make it even harder for all the whining frustrated males to get laid. But sobeit.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    You're probably right. She has changed her identity so many times and I haven't tried to keep track of it.
    Why would you (unless you had some kind of creepy fixation)? It's irrelevant. One of the reasons for changing my handle (not my identity), is to help people like you, (who seem capable of no reply that is not ad hominem) to focus on what I say rather than who I am. Why don't you try it?
    Every debate I enter into ends up being all about me. It's absurd. What is it about me that gets those panties so bunched up? Ask yourself (quietly)... then STFU about it and try to stay on-topic.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

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