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  1. #51
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    I grew up in Canada but I don't really know much about health care there because I was covered under my dad's insurance, I think... I never needed anything too major but it always seemed fine. My dad had cancer ten years ago and except for a scary bit near the beginning where they tried to tell him he didn't need treatment after the lump was removed, or something insane like that (!) it all went quite well - there was a new cancer treatment center in town and he had radiation and has been clear since then, so far.

    Then I lived in the Republic of Ireland for a few years and honestly I could never really figure out how it worked. I paid for partial private health care through work because I wanted to ensure I'd have a hospital bed if I got hit by a bus. But if I wanted to go for a doctor for a sick note or to be checked you had to pay every time.

    Living in the UK and based on my own experiences I have great admiration for the NHS. I know they have problems but it's a lot better than nothing. I'm an EU citizen and pretty much a permanent working taxpaying resident. When my face got sliced open recently they gave me a tetanus shot, bandaged it for a day and a half, then had a PLASTIC SURGEON stitch it up for me because it was on my face (and though it was nasty it wasn't massive and gory), etc. And a few years ago when my fear of flying got bad, I had therapy sessions for free. I went to the doctor expecting to be presecribed anti-anxiety pills and they sent me to a therapist! And they got me in for it pretty quickly, too - I had thought I might have to wait months but I think it was a few weeks at most.

    Except for a few occasions for something more minor where a doctor seemed too rushed and dismissive - I've found in my case that they've gone above and beyond the call of duty.
    Its not just better than nothing from what you've said its better than the ROI for instance and probably other examples too.

    I had a similar experience with the ROI services, I went one time following a mysterious cough and sickness, which I presonally attribute to some pretty powerful anti-TB and heppetitous immunisations I was given (working with homeless client group were that was rife) but anyway, the Dr told me yes, I was sick, probably getting better since I was able to come out and see him for an appointment, then to go to the chemist across the street and buy some cold relief remedies. The whole thing cost me twenty five pound, which at the time was a lot of money to me living on a week to week basis on the real breadline money from the project I worked and lived with. I was so surprised at all this I just paid it and asked if he was going to write me a script, he was surprised at that too and just wrote the name of some popular brands on a piece of note paper and said look for this.

    He was a nice guy but it smacked of a sort of underdevelopment really, I kind of think that about welfare regimes and public spending, its one thing when your country is some bannana republic under the thumb of the IMF or something but when your country can afford it but wont support it because of a short sighted idea that you think you'll end up buying your neighbours gran her medicine with the money you want for the tickets for the game (which is sort of the rationale I've encountered from US opposition) that's just 24 carrot dumb.

  2. #52
    Senior Member The Great One's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReadingRainbows View Post
    Ok thx. I will take a look at this when I get a chance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Are you kidding?

    National insurance in the UK, which I presume is the same as Canada, is automatic, you pay it like income tax when you are employed, if you are not employed you are entitled to the same service, in either case you may wait but you eventually receive a service, which is better than NEVER receiving the service because you do not have the money and have no means of acquiring it either.

    I've never had to wait too long for any day procedure from the NHS, I can get an appointment with a GP if I'm ill, on an emergency basis, that day or the following day, the most I've waited for a planned consultation/appointment with my designated GP (as opposed to any GP available on an emergency basis) has been three weeks, the waiting times are reduced for children or the elderly although to me that is logical since they are less capable to waiting than most adults members of the population.

    For big procedures, such as surgery, when I was a child and experienced illness warranting those interventions I waited, at the most a month. The only obscenely long wait I've ever experienced arose as a consequence of a new hospital being built and my records being displaced or destroyed in their relocation to the new facility and my not mentioning the complaint with any regularity, ie not believing it was "that bad", it was a muscle and bone injury.

    When I did discover the problem hadnt gone away I got immediate treatment, in fact I got seen by a number of professionals, podiatrists, physiotherapists, consultants and had an scan done privately, further I had some x-rays done and finally was flown, with my dad, to a private hospital in the north of england, they laid on all transport, plane, taxi, laid on accomodation for my dad in a neighbouring holiday inn, I had surgery, got physio, got flight back, got futher physio and was cured.

    In the case of that snafu it took three to five years to get it sorted, although I was not incapacitated throughout that time or as a result, without the extenuating circumstances I'd have been seen within the year.

    When I was diagnosed with diabetes I saw a nurse specialist THAT DAY, I mean within minutes of diagnosis, I saw a range of professionals within in following weeks, tested my eyes, feet, bloods, saw a dietician. None of it at a personal expense on the days I saw them, all of which was scheduled at my convenience. If I ever want a battery of tests on my blood etc. all I have to do is go up the road to my local health centre and wait to be seen in the tratement room, which could take a couple hours but has never taken more than three.

    If I ever have an accident I can go to any hospital and be treated immediately, with no more than a three hour wait.

    Also all prescriptions I may get at a GP or A&E appointment are tax funded so I incur no personal expense having paid my taxes already.
    Well, that's good. Maybe so called, "Obama Care" may not work as poorly as the health care that I've personally experienced then.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rail Tracer View Post
    it would be like the Supreme Court Justices. They get a lifetime job as well as good pay. All that is so that the Justices themselves WILL only think about their job and not think about having a reelection/job security, pay, healthcare and etc because thinking of those things will impede on their ability on deciding cases on their job.
    This is the ideal if resources were unlimited. But with an aging population, there is no way to pull this off. The younger generation will not be willing to put most of their earnings towards providing health care for old people. Given this reality, how do we allocate limited resources to maximize the benefits?

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    Truth be told, I would much rather have a doctor like me in the medical field than someone like a Wallstreet asshole out to make money. There are intelligent, sensitive people in the world who have a concept of intrinsic worth and humanitarianism.
    Yes, but how do we motivate people like you to become doctors?

  5. #55
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    Yes, but how do we motivate people like you to become doctors?
    Have a system that isn't controlled by insurance and pharmaceutical company shareholders. I seriously considered medicine, astronomy, or the field I chose, but was scared off from medicine by the intense political dynamics. The particular type of competitive mentality is also off-putting, and I think it is also influenced by the drive towards wealth.

    My husbands work partner has a daughter in medical school who is in it for the right reasons, but she is amazed and disappointed by how many of her peers are focused on the money.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  6. #56
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Great One View Post
    Well, that's good. Maybe so called, "Obama Care" may not work as poorly as the health care that I've personally experienced then.
    "Obamacare" is bound to be significantly better than what we have now for most people, but not as good as a true single-payer (NOT government provided) system.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  7. #57
    Freaking Ratchet Rail Tracer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    This is the ideal if resources were unlimited. But with an aging population, there is no way to pull this off. The younger generation will not be willing to put most of their earnings towards providing health care for old people. Given this reality, how do we allocate limited resources to maximize the benefits?
    Most middle-aged people are the ones making most of the money, most old-aged people are in a decline when it comes to their earnings, and for most of us who are still young, our earnings are just starting or barely starting. Instead of using that fund to fund social security AND medicare for people who get into old age with unknowable return back to the government, have that yearly social security and medicare income go into monthly healthcare which would be broader than Social Security or Medicare alone. Most people in the middle-aged and young group will be the ones that will pull the economy in the long run, and that is where the breadth of the healthcare needs to move towards to (I'm not proposing whether we should have vouchers or leave the system as is, because I do not like either of the two proposals.)

    Meaning tax by proportion of income. But like I said, that is certainly not going to happen or at least not this couple of decades (or even further.) Call me whatever for proposing this line. What occurs monthly, we pay monthly based on our earnings. As the younger generations progress, they'd be pulling most of the leg-work for the new generations. The exceptions are that you HAVE to be an American citizen, no exceptions like your child is an American citizen but you aren't (it means the person who isn't an American citizen has to apply for American citizenship to receive anything.) For most of us, healthcare will become a monthly affair that we pay. Once we get into old age, we'd still be having that healthcare, but it means we'd contribute less than we did from young to middle age. For those younger than 18, they are afforded healthcare through their parents, and for those in college, their tuition would basically be their coverage.

    For most of us who hasn't payed much or any towards social security, we can transition towards a healthcare system that we can use throughout one's lifetime instead of one that helps for only old age. The government and companies would not be allowed to touch this tax fund for any purpose except for paying for the healthcare on a monthly basis. There will ALWAYS be a government evaluation of these companies to find out whether they are hiding information or not (because companies do spend extra because they believe they'll earn less if the government finds out they earned a profit.)

    Pooling healthcare works in a way where everyone who gets into it mitigates the risk of high costs and the uncertainty of getting healthcare. Unfortunately for most of us, getting any healthcare is almost out of the question unless your family is poor (in which some of them receive medicaid... etc) This means that a lot of us aren't part of the pooling.

    I honestly do not know, but I would say that broadening what social security and medicare affects of who it effects by taxation would definitely be better than having a voucher system or leaving it as is.

  8. #58
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    We need to rule out increased taxation. It will not work. Look what happened with real estate. The government tried to make housing available to more people by essentially giving out free money. But all that did was to cause housing prices to skyrocket until it became unaffordable again.

    The same thing will happen with health care. Increasing the supply of money through taxation would only cause the price of services to rise. We will end up in the exact same place.

    The only viable solution is to reduce the cost of services.

  9. #59
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    We need to rule out increased taxation. It will not work. Look what happened with real estate. The government tried to make housing available to more people by essentially giving out free money. But all that did was to cause housing prices to skyrocket until it became unaffordable again.
    These are not comparable situations at all. Their natures are very much at odds with one another.

    Increasing the supply of money through taxation would only cause the price of services to rise.
    You do not "increase the supply of money through taxation". You could say that forced allocation of spending would cause the price of services to rise. This has been thoroughly rejected, as demonstrated through the multitude of public systems worldwide. Costs do not rise when adopting these public systems.

    The only viable solution is to reduce the cost of services.
    A solution cannot be a generality. You would need a specific mention of how to reduce the cost of services.

    Besides, you have a viable solution already. It's just inefficient and running at roughly equilibrium. "Improvements" on the current system are likely only to make it worse, at least until you approach a public option.

  10. #60
    Senior Member captain curmudgeon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    When fewer Americans can be convinced that being given the opportunity to make a living will is the same thing as facing a Death Panel.
    Precisely. In layman's terms, never.

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