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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    What incentives? Most management text books suggest people are motivated by things other than hard cash anyway.
    What besides cash would motivate someone to shovel excrement for a living?

  2. #42
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    What besides cash would motivate someone to shovel excrement for a living?

  3. #43
    Freaking Ratchet Rail Tracer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    You think most people will naturally gravitate towards work harder in the absence of incentives?
    Like @Lark said.

    Stress makes you work less or makes your work less efficient. Incentives do work, but that is only if it is a positive incentive (like giving a bonus to someone who has been working really hard.)

    Negative incentives, on the other hand, is like you have to work because you have to work to pay for bills, to pay for car insurance, to pay for food, to pay to "X." The only thing you are thinking about is money to pay for everything else. More often than not, people don't care about how crappy their work ethics are as long as they get paid to get pay for other things that they are more worried about.

    What was that saying from the Simpsons again? "If you don't like your job... you just go in every day and do everything half-ass." Neither efficient nor productive if you asked me. People would only care about the money and do the minimum to get that money, which means a minimum output.

    In a more concrete example
    (though a bit extreme), it would be like the Supreme Court Justices. They get a lifetime job as well as good pay. All that is so that the Justices themselves WILL only think about their job and not think about having a reelection/job security, pay, healthcare and etc because thinking of those things will impede on their ability on deciding cases on their job.

  4. #44
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    There are comments about doctors becoming apathetic without earning lots of money. These people are not surrounded by those in the arts or sciences, philosophy, or many intellectual pursuits. Many people earn doctorates, go into great debt, give up their youth to an intellectual pursuit just to risk poverty for a lifetime. I know, I'm in one such field with a doctorate, and I work incredibly hard at it, especially at the core of my intellectual field without any hope of compensation. Truth be told, I would much rather have a doctor like me in the medical field than someone like a Wallstreet asshole out to make money. There are intelligent, sensitive people in the world who have a concept of intrinsic worth and humanitarianism.
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  5. #45
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    National insurance in the UK, which I presume is the same as Canada, is automatic, you pay it like income tax when you are employed,
    There are some differences but the fundamentals are the same. The majority of the cost is covered through taxation, there is an additional (Medicare) cost that we pay and there are some surcharges/visitation fees in some locations beyond a certain amount of basic care. (Provinces dictate some of this.)

    Quote Originally Posted by The Great One View Post
    the waiting list to see the doctor was ungodly long. I've heard they have similar problems in Canada.
    We don't, not to the extreme you are talking about. Most examples are cherry picked accidents (which happen anywhere) or cosmetic (for which there is a private alternative, in most cases).

    Keep in mind that you could have absolutely no wait times by raising the basic cost of care beyond anyone's ability to pay it. This is a highly undesirable situation; the situation in the US is simply a less extreme version of this. The system is a net economic loss (ie: inefficient). There may be issues with socialised medical care but as has been demonstrated using various public systems, it is a net benefit to adopt a public model.

    Having said that, it could just be the US that is unique; we don't really have any other examples of corporate insurance private healthcare. There is no absolute guarantee that it would help the US; it's just very likely.

  6. #46
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rail Tracer View Post
    Also, Germany and many of the Northern European countries are doing just fine from what I heard. Of course, it is true that the U.S. is bigger compared to those countries. We can definitely learn from them even though they are smaller (but if we are going to talk about immigration, Germany... along with Japan might be the last countries to ask .)
    Well, in Germany you do pay quite *a lot* for health insurance. It's 15.5% of your gross salary.
    ENTj 7-3-8 sx/sp

  7. #47
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Well, in Germany you do pay quite *a lot* for health insurance. It's 15.5% of your gross salary.
    All things considered, to me, that doesnt seem that bad.

    When you consider the other things people spend money on.

  8. #48
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I've never had to wait too long for any day procedure from the NHS, I can get an appointment with a GP if I'm ill, on an emergency basis, that day or the following day, the most I've waited for a planned consultation/appointment with my designated GP (as opposed to any GP available on an emergency basis) has been three weeks, the waiting times are reduced for children or the elderly although to me that is logical since they are less capable to waiting than most adults members of the population.
    I grew up in Canada but I don't really know much about health care there because I was covered under my dad's insurance, I think... I never needed anything too major but it always seemed fine. My dad had cancer ten years ago and except for a scary bit near the beginning where they tried to tell him he didn't need treatment after the lump was removed, or something insane like that (!) it all went quite well - there was a new cancer treatment center in town and he had radiation and has been clear since then, so far.

    Then I lived in the Republic of Ireland for a few years and honestly I could never really figure out how it worked. I paid for partial private health care through work because I wanted to ensure I'd have a hospital bed if I got hit by a bus. But if I wanted to go for a doctor for a sick note or to be checked you had to pay every time.

    Living in the UK and based on my own experiences I have great admiration for the NHS. I know they have problems but it's a lot better than nothing. I'm an EU citizen and pretty much a permanent working taxpaying resident. When my face got sliced open recently they gave me a tetanus shot, bandaged it for a day and a half, then had a PLASTIC SURGEON stitch it up for me because it was on my face (and though it was nasty it wasn't massive and gory), etc. And a few years ago when my fear of flying got bad, I had therapy sessions for free. I went to the doctor expecting to be presecribed anti-anxiety pills and they sent me to a therapist! And they got me in for it pretty quickly, too - I had thought I might have to wait months but I think it was a few weeks at most.

    Except for a few occasions for something more minor where a doctor seemed too rushed and dismissive - I've found in my case that they've gone above and beyond the call of duty.
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  9. #49
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    All things considered, to me, that doesnt seem that bad.

    When you consider the other things people spend money on.
    Well yeah it depends, I generally am young and don´t have a car or motorbike, thus I rarely need to use health care, and thus it seems to be a lot of money. But I guess for older people, especially with children, it would be completely reasonable.
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  10. #50
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    I grew up in Canada but I don't really know much about health care there because I was covered under my dad's insurance, I think... I never needed anything too major but it always seemed fine. My dad had cancer ten years ago and except for a scary bit near the beginning where they tried to tell him he didn't need treatment after the lump was removed, or something insane like that (!) it all went quite well - there was a new cancer treatment center in town and he had radiation and has been clear since then, so far.

    Then I lived in the Republic of Ireland for a few years and honestly I could never really figure out how it worked. I paid for partial private health care through work because I wanted to ensure I'd have a hospital bed if I got hit by a bus. But if I wanted to go for a doctor for a sick note or to be checked you had to pay every time.

    Living in the UK and based on my own experiences I have great admiration for the NHS. I know they have problems but it's a lot better than nothing. I'm an EU citizen and pretty much a permanent working taxpaying resident. When my face got sliced open recently they gave me a tetanus shot, bandaged it for a day and a half, then had a PLASTIC SURGEON stitch it up for me because it was on my face (and though it was nasty it wasn't massive and gory), etc. And a few years ago when my fear of flying got bad, I had therapy sessions for free. I went to the doctor expecting to be presecribed anti-anxiety pills and they sent me to a therapist! And they got me in for it pretty quickly, too - I had thought I might have to wait months but I think it was a few weeks at most.

    Except for a few occasions for something more minor where a doctor seemed too rushed and dismissive - I've found in my case that they've gone above and beyond the call of duty.
    Its not just better than nothing from what you've said its better than the ROI for instance and probably other examples too.

    I had a similar experience with the ROI services, I went one time following a mysterious cough and sickness, which I presonally attribute to some pretty powerful anti-TB and heppetitous immunisations I was given (working with homeless client group were that was rife) but anyway, the Dr told me yes, I was sick, probably getting better since I was able to come out and see him for an appointment, then to go to the chemist across the street and buy some cold relief remedies. The whole thing cost me twenty five pound, which at the time was a lot of money to me living on a week to week basis on the real breadline money from the project I worked and lived with. I was so surprised at all this I just paid it and asked if he was going to write me a script, he was surprised at that too and just wrote the name of some popular brands on a piece of note paper and said look for this.

    He was a nice guy but it smacked of a sort of underdevelopment really, I kind of think that about welfare regimes and public spending, its one thing when your country is some bannana republic under the thumb of the IMF or something but when your country can afford it but wont support it because of a short sighted idea that you think you'll end up buying your neighbours gran her medicine with the money you want for the tickets for the game (which is sort of the rationale I've encountered from US opposition) that's just 24 carrot dumb.

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