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  1. #51
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Well this is already becoming one of those condescending nit picking threads.

    *tales his leave*
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

  2. #52
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Cuba's doing well? Are you serious?
    In a number of ways. Did you not pay attention to what I said?
    It has a number of horrible problems. It also has several points that are better than America.
    Same goes for China, same went for the USSR.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    I like where he calls for 'positively implemented socialism'. What does that even mean? How is that different from any other 'brand' of socialism?
    It's not very hard to undestand what I mean. You must realize that there is a good way and a bad way to practice everything. The failures of much of the Socialist experiments in history so far were a result of a few policy errors that were not themselves inherent to Socialism. (of course, I'd like to point out that some things, like universal healthcare, have not been failures by any means).

    The same is just as true about capitalism. I'm sure you think it can be practiced positively, but it can also be practiced very negatively.
    Aside from who knows how many capitalist dictatorships and empires I could point out, I could also make a more mild example out of the post-Soviety bloc.
    Nearly all of those countries were actually better off before their switch to capitalism, and that's saying something.
    Russia has started finding its feet again, but only under Putin, her certainly doesn't represent your ideals in his leadership.

    If you want to know how "positively implemented socialism" is different, just look up some of the things I already mentioned, like economic Democracy. That is a Socialist model I have faith in which has never been practiced before.
    I would also draw the point that Socialism has often been enstated by political strongmen(though this is by no means unique to Socialism). I advocate a more compassionate and Democratic path Socialism.
    We need to persuade people to see its benefits.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  3. #53
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    It's not very hard to undestand what I mean. You must realize that there is a good way and a bad way to practice everything.
    Umm, no. Some ideas just suck. No matter how 'good' you try to practice them, or how many different names you give them, they still suck.

    The failures of much of the Socialist experiments in history so far were a result of a few policy errors that were not themselves inherent to Socialism. (of course, I'd like to point out that some things, like universal healthcare, have not been failures by any means).
    LOL, policy errors. Gulags are fucking policy errors? Wow. Then again, it makes sense. I bet Pol Pot was a victim of policy errors, too!

    As for your claims that it's worked in certain cases (like health care), that's highly debatable.

    The same is just as true about capitalism. I'm sure you think it can be practiced positively, but it can also be practiced very negatively.
    Aside from who knows how many capitalist dictatorships and empires I could point out, I could also make a more mild example out of the post-Soviety bloc.
    Nearly all of those countries were actually better off before their switch to capitalism, and that's saying something.
    Russia has started finding its feet again, but only under Putin, her certainly doesn't represent your ideals in his leadership.
    Dude, where do you get this stuff? Those Soviet bloc nations were NOT better off under communism. Seriously, how can you possibly think the people were better off? Is it opposite day or something?

    As for the corruption in the Soviet government, that's been there regardless of the economic system.

    If you want to know how "positively implemented socialism" is different, just look up some of the things I already mentioned, like economic Democracy. That is a Socialist model I have faith in which has never been practiced before.
    You know why it's never been practiced? Because it can only be implemented by force. Just like all collectivism, it doesn't form naturally, except in small groups. On a massive scale, it can only be implemented at gun point.

    So if you want to try it out, get more guns.

    I would also draw the point that Socialism has often been enstated by political strongmen(though this is by no means unique to Socialism). I advocate a more compassionate and Democratic path Socialism.
    We need to persuade people to see its benefits.
    There's a reason socialism has been implemented by strongmen. Because a vast majority of mankind won't willingly accept the lack of freedom that comes with it. That's always going to be the problem with socialism, it goes against mankind's nature. Until you can change that nature, drastically reducing the individual's self-interest priority, socialism is doomed to failure.

    What is it about China that you like so much? I'll admit that forcing women to have abortions is a great idea, but there's got to be more to it than that. Although, I do wonder why so many Chinese sneak into the US illegally, while US citizens aren't sneaking into China. Is it because all the Americans sneaking into Cuba?

  4. #54
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    What silly self contradicting ideology.

    Man's nature is not purely self serving, but to those who think in such a single minded way, it would be inconceivable that there could be any merit to any value outside of liberty. Fortunately, man is a social animal and every individual is interdependent on other human beings. And it is for that reason that man will willfully sacrifice some of his individual freedom in exchange from the same from his fellow man. This is equality and it is what makes democracy possible. That is not an ideological principle, but reality. Without a balance of liberty and equality, there would only be anarchy or oppression. It amuses me to no end to watch both extremes fight each other when reality dictates that both values are a necessity to human progress and preservation.

    To think I ever wasted my time with such trite.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

  5. #55
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Umm, no. Some ideas just suck. No matter how 'good' you try to practice them, or how many different names you give them, they still suck.
    You aren't very objective, are you?
    I can't say that was very well put, either.
    I still stand by the case that virtually everything in the world can be viewed as a two-sided coin or beyond. The more complex and vast an issue gets, the more possible sides and shades that need to be considered.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    LOL, policy errors. Gulags are fucking policy errors? Wow. Then again, it makes sense. I bet Pol Pot was a victim of policy errors, too!
    This is essentially a non-sequitur. Soviet gulags have no innate connection to the practice of Socialism. Let me give you a little example of how your logic works: Pinochet was a capitalist. Pinochet imprisoned opposition and had them tortured. There for, all governments that practice capitalism must imprison dissenters and torture them.

    Do you see how that is false? Do you recognize that this is the logic you are using?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    As for your claims that it's worked in certain cases (like health care), that's highly debatable.
    Hah, if you say so... what about Social Security?

    [QUOTE=Lateralus;217505]
    Dude, where do you get this stuff? Those Soviet bloc nations were NOT better off under communism. Seriously, how can you possibly think the people were better off? Is it opposite day or something?[quote]

    Well, economically, much of those countries around Russia fell into greater poverty and debt than they had ever known as a part of the USSR. Russia itself was wracked with mafia style corruption that many felt was actually more harmful than the government corruption had been (this is part of the reason that mr. Putin gained popularity. He put his fist down on much of the turbulent business).

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    As for the corruption in the Soviet government, that's been there regardless of the economic system.
    What do you mean by this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    You know why it's never been practiced? Because it can only be implemented by force. Just like all collectivism, it doesn't form naturally, except in small groups. On a massive scale, it can only be implemented at gun point.

    So if you want to try it out, get more guns.
    This is a completely uneducated assessment. The systems I propose are actually Democratic in nature... more Democratic than anything the USA is doing right now. Nor is it collectivist in the way that you are connoting. It's a system where everyone gets a say, not one where everyone obeys.

    And in fact, large groups can interact without physical threat. Why do you think societies ever appear in the first place?
    What do you say about countries like the USA, anyhow? It may not be collectivist, but it is still shockingly coordinated for a nation of hundreds of millions of people spanning thousands of miles. How did this happen?

    And how could things be done any other way? Humanity has an exploding population with a limited range of resources and hospitable territory. Humans cannot afford to live in small factions clustered together like that. It will be violently anarchic. It will be tribal warfare.
    Why do you think people stopped living that way?
    Because order grants a better life than chaos. Even submitting to a despot is better than being raped by roving bandits day in and day out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    There's a reason socialism has been implemented by strongmen. Because a vast majority of mankind won't willingly accept the lack of freedom that comes with it. That's always going to be the problem with socialism, it goes against mankind's nature. Until you can change that nature, drastically reducing the individual's self-interest priority, socialism is doomed to failure.
    You need to study sociology, anthropology, and evolutionary psychology.
    Human beings are a socialism species. We more complexly and deeply social than most. On top of that, an individual can find a lot of personal interest cooperating in a legal society. We return to my point about order and chaos, and despots and bandits.

    There are pay-offs to collective action. Read some of Mancur Olson's work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    What is it about China that you like so much? I'll admit that forcing women to have abortions is a great idea, but there's got to be more to it than that. Although, I do wonder why so many Chinese sneak into the US illegally, while US citizens aren't sneaking into China. Is it because all the Americans sneaking into Cuba?
    First of all, you immediately made a huge error in stating that I like China, when I put so much effort into assuring that I believe it has made certain progressions, while still feeling that it is backwards in many ways.

    You are also focusing on more civil and governmental matters than what I'm talking about. I'm not talking about those things, I'm talking about socio-economics. There was never any point that I advocated things like forcing abortions.

    The immigration issue is very complicated. It has to do with wealth, public relations, national policies, culture, and a lot of other things, some that are affected by socialism and capitalism, and others that have nothing to do with it at all (I would say the majority). Anyway, you're probably going to see that slow down anyway. The USA's PR is at an all time low, it's a declining power, and China is currently the number one cause of declining poverty in the world (I shit you not. They are going up, up, up). While much of China's practices are horrible, I think that as it's wealth improves, it will have a real opportunity to better itself.
    In my most wildly optimistic dreams, I'd want China to start converting to the sort of policies I promote, but I don't think it's very likely.


    Now I want you to think good and hard about what I said, and try and hard to develop your responses to this post, because frankly, your mannerism so far has been ignorant, incomprehensive, and tactless.
    If you don't improve your style fast, I'm just going to put you on ignore so I can focus on higher caliber people, like ygolo.

    I still await his response.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  6. #56
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Cuba is a shithole. There about three areas in which Cuba is better off than the United States: infant mortality, doctors per capita, and crime. And we don't even know how better off they are as to crime, since their government won't report murder and rape statistics (the rape/sexual assault per capita is said to be appallingly high). Also, living in a police state often leads to decrease in crime. GDP per capita, civil rights, political liberties, standard of living, economic rights, freedom of movement, etc. are all outrageously bad or non-existent. It's a shitty place run by a xenophobic, lying asshole. An asshole worse than (and with as much blood on his hands as) the asshole we have in the United States. The main difference is that the Castros don't have to give up power, which is absolutely disgusting. I wouldn't go to Cuba if I got to be the next dictator there. I'd gladly visit once the whole thing tumbles down, though. And the embargo should go. Don't try to tell me that Cuba is "on several points, better than America." That is the most intellectually dishonest form of fellow-traveling I've seen on these boards.

    P.S. Your support for a murdering demagogue like Putin disgusts me, and I LOL'ed at "Philanthropies rarely have the precision that government does." You are completely out to lunch.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  7. #57
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Cuba is a shithole. There about three areas in which Cuba is better off than the United States: infant mortality, doctors per capita, and crime. And we don't even know how better off they are as to crime, since their government won't report murder and rape statistics (the rape/sexual assault per capita is said to be appallingly high). Also, living in a police state often leads to decrease in crime. GDP per capita, civil rights, political liberties, standard of living, economic rights, freedom of movement, etc. are all outrageously bad or non-existent. It's a shitty place run by a xenophobic, lying asshole. An asshole worse than (and with as much blood on his hands as) the asshole we have in the United States. The main difference is that the Castros don't have to give up power, which is absolutely disgusting. I wouldn't go to Cuba if I got to be the next dictator there. I'd gladly visit once the whole thing tumbles down, though. And the embargo should go.
    Ermm, civil rights aren't really quantifiable. But yes, we pretty much all agree that they are bad. I don't recall, was the GINI co-efficient lower in Cuba than in the USA? Still, my central point was regarding Cuba's medical system, which I think still stands.

    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Don't try to tell me that Cuba is "on several points, better than America." That is the most intellectually dishonest form of fellow-traveling I've seen on these boards.
    Oh, cry me a river. I wasn't trying to con anyone. Isn't this melodrama sort of dishonest in and of itself? I'm not terribly impressed by all of your profanity, either.

    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    P.S. Your support for a murdering demagogue like Putin disgusts me, and I LOL'ed at "Philanthropies rarely have the precision that government does." You are completely out to lunch.
    I don't seem to recall giving my support to Putin. I was, however, realistic enough to notice that some changes under his leadership could, and overwhelmingly have been(in certain parts of the world) perceived as positive.
    You and Lateralus, along with many other people, have an incredible problem understanding that I can observe positive and negative qualities within something without it reflecting my judgement of the whole.

    Okay, you "LOL'ed". I'm not sure what this is supposed to prove. I'm not persuaded by the fact that aren't even taking my seriously, and I don't understand why you think I would be. That plus saying that I am "completely out to lunch" is all very nice, but I would appreciate an elaboration.
    If you are so confident, then I'm sure you are prepared to explain why my opinion is so absurd.

    (As a bonus question. Could you tell me what national leaders you like?)
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Ermm, civil rights aren't really quantifiable. But yes, we pretty much all agree that they are bad. I don't recall, was the GINI co-efficient lower in Cuba than in the USA? Still, my central point was regarding Cuba's medical system, which I think still stands.



    Oh, cry me a river. I wasn't trying to con anyone. Isn't this melodrama sort of dishonest in and of itself? I'm not terribly impressed by all of your profanity, either.



    I don't seem to recall giving my support to Putin. I was, however, realistic enough to notice that some changes under his leadership could, and overwhelmingly have been(in certain parts of the world) perceived as positive.
    You and Lataralus, along with many other people, have an incredible problem understanding that I can observe positive and negative qualities within something without it reflecting my judgement of the whole.

    Okay, you "LOL'ed". I'm not sure what this is supposed to prove. I'm not persuaded by the fact that aren't even taking my seriously, and I don't understand why you think I would be. That plus saying that I am "completely out to lunch" is all very nice, but I would appreciate an elaboration.
    If you are so confident, then I'm sure you are prepared to explain why my opinion is so absurd.

    (As a bonus question. Could you tell me what national leaders you like?)
    Well, let's see.

    A) A lower GINI coefficient is not necessarily a good thing. Inequality is not, in and of itself, a bad thing. I am sure Zimbabwe has a pretty low coefficient right now. Not a good thing there.

    B) It's not intellectually dishonest because you are trying to "con" the other people on here. It's intellectually dishonest within your own mind, because you are intelligent enough to know that the United States, even under Bush, is Shangri-La compared to Castro's Cuba. Trying to make the comparison/contrast into "Well, some of it is better; some of it is worse" is NOT objective. It's built-in bias.

    C) When you said Russia has started to find its feet again under Putin, it sounded like an endorsement to me. If that is my misinterpretation, my mistake. For my part, I cannot be morally objective about tyrannical leaders. It is in my blood to hate them.

    D) Government is, by nature, using a hammer to pound square pegs into round holes. There are VERY few things that the government does efficiently, and helping the poor is not one of them. Philanthropic organizations vary, but are usually more effective than government at their stated goals. Medicins Sans Frontieres (which receives some government money, but 80% of its budget is from private donors) and The Red Cross/Red Crescent are far more effective at providing medical attention to people in poor or distressed areas than are governments.

    E) I don't try to impress anyone with profanity. If you think I was doing that, then you don't know me very well. I didn't mean to be offensive, but this is clearly something about which I feel strongly.

    F) I am cynical about politicians by nature, but some historical ones I respect include Jefferson, Madison, Monroe, and Cleveland in the U.S., and Lord Palmerston in the UK. Currently, I like the Free Democrats in Germany, Movimiento Libertario in Costa Rica, Sabine Herold in France. I don't agree with Ron Paul on every issue (the immigration and abortion stuff doesn't appeal, and I am not a goldbug nor particularly freaked out about U.S. sovereignty), but I respect his voting "no" on every unconstitutional bill that the House throws out there. Most politicians make me queasy, though. In general, they are power-hungry, bullying liars.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  9. #59
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Cuba is a shithole.
    Considering it has been under a Superpower embargo for so many years, I think it is doing fairly well.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
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  10. #60
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    Considering it has been under a Superpower embargo for so many years, I think it is doing fairly well.
    Believe me, it's not. I think the embargo is ridiculous, and it should have been lifted decades ago, but it's not the sole (or even primary) reason that Cuba is poor. Far poorer than it should be.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

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