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  1. #11
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eileen View Post
    I agree with you that Kiddo is unlikely to be a libertarian based on what he says, but I find it peculiar that you would assume to know the political stances of the majority of the forum.
    NFs (the majority of this forum) tend to be more left-wing than other temperaments. Add to that, quizzes and posts by active members and it's not difficult to surmise the political stances of most.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  2. #12
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsWhatHeSaid View Post
    YAY FOR WORDGAMES!
    Anarchist communism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Libertarian socialism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Mutualism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Libertarianism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Anarcho-capitalism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Does that help any?
    How bout this?

    The first known use of a term that has been translated as "libertarian" in a political sense was by anarcho-communist Joseph Dejacque, who used the French term libertaire in a letter to Proudhon in 1857.
    The first known libertarian was an anarcho-communist?

    Does it really sound like economic philosophy has anything to do with whether a person is called a "libertarian" or not?
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

  3. #13
    Member nightwatcher's Avatar
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    The problem with libertarianism is that getting rid of government doesn’t lead to individual freedom any more than anarchy does. There’s the human nature problem: the powerful take over and dominate the weak who have no protection. Deregulation puts individuals and the environment at the mercy of big corporations who become as oppressive as the big brother government libertarians fear so much. It’s a flip side of Communsion, one big body of authority (the government) or another (the few corporations that control everything).

    We have the same goal of individual freedom, but I think you need a sane balance of power between government and big business. I guess from the liberatarian point of view I would be some kind of evil socialist

    It seems clear that at this time the radical right wing/Religious Right faction that dominates the Republican Party is the one we have most to fear from in terms of individual freedom, not to mention other things. The far left elements of repression are nowhere near as dominant despite what the Rush Limbaugh types would have us believe.

    The President Huckabee scenario is definitely the stuff of nightmares.

    You poor libertarians: the best you can hope for is gridlock Kidding aside, I guess from that point of view it makes more sense to vote for McCain, assuming that the Democrats hold onto Congress. Still, gridlock or not, there's the greater possibility of McCain invading and occupying Iran or something along those lines. Is that something most libertarians would be happy with?
    "Space was big, and the boys from Earth were awed despite themselves by the things they found there: but worse, their science was in a mess. Every race they met on their way through the Core had a star drive based on a different theory. All those theories worked, even when they ruled out one another’s basic assumptions. You could travel between the stars, it began to seem, by assuming anything.”

    —M. John Harrison, “Light”

  4. #14
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightwatcher View Post
    The problem with libertarianism is that getting rid of government doesn't lead to individual freedom any more than anarchy does. There's the human nature problem: the powerful take over and dominate the weak who have no protection. Deregulation puts individuals and the environment at the mercy of big corporations who become as oppressive as the big brother government libertarians fear so much. It's a flip side of Communsion, one big body of authority (the government) or another (the few corporations that control everything).
    Not all libertarians want to get rid of government and not all favor deregulation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

  5. #15
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightwatcher View Post
    Deregulation puts individuals and the environment at the mercy of big corporations who become as oppressive as the big brother government libertarians fear so much.
    You have it backwards. Regulation is in the best interest of existing large companies because they have the power to influence the regulation in their favor. Regulation hurts the small newcomers moreso than the large companies because of the overhead. Regulation reduces competition, raising consumer costs.

    I'm not against all regulation, I just don't like it that people don't see it as a double edged sword. In many cases (but not all), regulation has done far more harm than good. Everyone hears about the 100 people who died from a bad drug, but no one hears about the 10,000 people who died of heart attacks because the FDA refused to approve a heart medication. The first case captures media headlines, the second one goes unnoticed by the general public. Which one was more destructive for society?
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  6. #16
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    [QUOTE=nightwatcher;213632] Deregulation puts individuals and the environment at the mercy of big corporations who become as oppressive as the big brother government libertarians fear so much.


    Interesting. Could you give an example of how a corporation could be as oppressive as the government?

  7. #17
    Senior Member ThatsWhatHeSaid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    Anarchist communism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Libertarian socialism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Mutualism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Libertarianism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Anarcho-capitalism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Does that help any?
    How bout this?



    The first known libertarian was an anarcho-communist?

    Does it really sound like economic philosophy has anything to do with whether a person is called a "libertarian" or not?
    Who knows. Words are defined by convention and different groups in different times have different conventions. The words themselves are meaningless. These types of debates tend to bore me because no one can be right and no one can be wrong. Until you all agree on what labels to use for everything, you're not really discovering anything new, imo.

  8. #18
    Member nightwatcher's Avatar
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    Apologies if I’ve misrepresented the libertarian viewpoint; it’s hard to avoid over-generalizing on posts like this. Political identity is as a complex and individually flavored as religious/spiritual identity. Writing a post about “libertarians” is like writing one about “Christians”; there’s no way you can fairly represent all the variations. But thanks for the corrections.

    As for regulation, it’s not my sacred cow. I don’t automatically favor every kind of regulation. And I recognize the problem of big money influence in legislation.
    "Space was big, and the boys from Earth were awed despite themselves by the things they found there: but worse, their science was in a mess. Every race they met on their way through the Core had a star drive based on a different theory. All those theories worked, even when they ruled out one another’s basic assumptions. You could travel between the stars, it began to seem, by assuming anything.”

    —M. John Harrison, “Light”

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    That is the only kind of liberty there is.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo
    The only difference between me and Lateralus is our idea of economic freedom.
    does liberty mean something different from freedom now?

    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsWhatHeSaid View Post
    These types of debates tend to bore me because no one can be right
    Except for the guy who's not directly participating but wants to interject to let everybody know he's bored?
    I don't wanna!

  10. #20
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    Why can't I be a libertarian?
    Because you put way too much faith in government-run social programs.

    I have to admit, though, with your propensity to argue, you'd fit right in with the Libertarian party regulars.

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