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  1. #91
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    And I pointed out why it is illogical to make the conclusion you made with the information you presented.
    It's not illogical in the least. That argument holds no water. One wouldn't even need to have studied economics to understand how the evidence works in this case. Why are you being so intransigent? There is evidence that is so glaring, so prima facie that you must either not want to believe the statistics, or you do not understand the words I am using. I can't do this anymore if you are going to be willfully ignorant. I won't accomplish anything but put together pretty combinations of words, and we're entertaining guests today. Eat up all the bandwidth you'd like with pictures. I am done for the day. I did what I set out to do, and I am pleased.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  2. #92
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    It's not illogical in the least. That argument holds no water. One wouldn't even need to have studied economics to understand how the evidence works in this case. Why are you being so intransigent? There is evidence that is so glaring, so prima facie that you must either not want to believe the statistics, or you do not understand the words I am using. I can't do this anymore if you are going to be willfully ignorant. I won't accomplish anything but put together pretty combinations of words, and we're entertaining guests today. Eat up all the bandwidth you'd like with pictures. I am done for the day. I did what I set out to do, and I am pleased.
    I already gave you your purple giraffe. Please go enjoy it. I really have no interest in listening to how "obvious" your easily debunked argument is.

    If you or anyone else needs an explanation for the purple giraffe then please consult this video.

    YouTube - Stupid People and You
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

  3. #93
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    The problem is, debate moderators are, for good reason, usually not one of the two people debating. They might conspicuously always choose themselves to be the winners.

    I really fail to see how you did me any better. I put you down because by the end of the debate, my questions started going totally unanswered, while you just kept asserting that something it true basically because you said so.
    I wasn't rellying on statistics or recorded material, but I was trying to give the rational justification for things. If I made any mistakes, it's that I made too much reference to complex theories that couldn't be fully addressed (even if the were entirely relavant), and, contrary to your opinion, I might have been too responsive to you. I tried responding to every single thing you shot off, and I supposed I tried to get too much out of them.

    I can't expact to give the subjects of complex lectures in response to someone who's simply taking a sophist approach to winning a debate.
    So you know, even if I lost form, I'd really rather be a poor debater with the right idea than a good debater with the wrong idea.

    If you want, some time I can more methodically explain every little detail of every point I was trying make, if it all seems so mysterious to you.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  4. #94
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    I mean look, I could have responded to all of your last comments, but as I said, I was turned off by your declaration of victory.

    But I'll conscede something to you as I look this over. I really don't know what your point is. I can't argue against you if I can't even figure what all of the things you say are supposed to amount to.
    The most clear thing you were talking about was the notion that businessmen are more trustworthy than politicians. Eventually you actually got around to trying to explain why, but only by the end of all of this (and I do seriously question your reasons).
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  5. #95
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    I mean look, I could have responded to all of your last comments, but as I said, I was turned off by your declaration of victory.

    But I'll conscede something to you as I look this over. I really don't know what your point is. I can't argue against you if I can't even figure what all of the things you say are supposed to amount to.
    The most clear thing you were talking about was the notion that businessmen are more trustworthy than politicians. Eventually you actually got around to trying to explain why, but only by the end of all of this (and I do seriously question your reasons).
    You've missed the point entirely. Businesspeople also have incentives both to lie and to tell the truth, play by the rules, etc. Politicians always have to lie in modern society, because A) 90% of what they do is unconstitutional, and basis for impeachment or recall; and B) the majority of the electorate would be appalled if they knew of every little dirty thing that the government did. Do you know any businesspeople, or any federal or state government officials?
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  6. #96
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    The problem is, debate moderators are, for good reason, usually not one of the two people debating. They might conspicuously always choose themselves to be the winners.

    I really fail to see how you did me any better. I put you down because by the end of the debate, my questions started going totally unanswered, while you just kept asserting that something it true basically because you said so.
    I wasn't rellying on statistics or recorded material, but I was trying to give the rational justification for things. If I made any mistakes, it's that I made too much reference to complex theories that couldn't be fully addressed (even if the were entirely relavant), and, contrary to your opinion, I might have been too responsive to you. I tried responding to every single thing you shot off, and I supposed I tried to get too much out of them.

    I can't expact to give the subjects of complex lectures in response to someone who's simply taking a sophist approach to winning a debate.
    So you know, even if I lost form, I'd really rather be a poor debater with the right idea than a good debater with the wrong idea.

    If you want, some time I can more methodically explain every little detail of every point I was trying make, if it all seems so mysterious to you.
    It's really bad form to be so condescending to someone who outperformed you. Actually, it's asshole form. Besides, you were a poor debater AND had the wrong idea, so it doesn't really matter.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  7. #97
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    That is what you get MP for not giving him a purple giraffe. Once people start declaring themselves the "winner" and refuse to discuss anything further, you can take it as a victory. It is usually a sign that you have threatened their way of thinking and they are shutting down the channels of communication in order to protect their ego.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

  8. #98
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    That is what you get MP for not giving him a purple giraffe. Once people start declaring themselves the "winner" and refuse to discuss anything further, you can take it as a victory. It is usually a sign that you have threatened their way of thinking and they are shutting down the channels of communication in order to protect their ego.
    And you are the one talking about "projecting" to me! You deserve the Nobel Prize for Hyprocrisy.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    And you are the one talking about "projecting" to me! You deserve the Nobel Prize for Hyprocrisy.


    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

  10. #100
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    You've missed the point entirely. Businesspeople also have incentives both to lie and to tell the truth, play by the rules, etc. Politicians always have to lie in modern society, because A) 90% of what they do is unconstitutional, and basis for impeachment or recall
    A politician doesn't have to lie. A politician could say someting that is true, that he believes to be true, and the public could agree.

    Your use of the constitution as an argument is interesting. I understand that it's generally a good idea, but I think you're eulogizing it too much. You're kind of treating it like the ten commandments. It was written by fallible men, and one could press a legitimate argument that the constitution might be wrong about something.

    As such, unconstitutionality has little to do with being a liar. Have you considered the possibility that a politician could blatantly defy the constitution, admit it, and no one would care? It's already happened.
    Dishonesty is not necessary.

    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    ; and B) the majority of the electorate would be appalled if they knew of every little dirty thing that the government did. Do you know any businesspeople, or any federal or state government officials?
    First of all, that doesn't mean that every politician is a guilty liar.
    But more importantly, I'm amazed that you even tried to use this argument.
    Do you know how much public would be, and has been appalled at the dirty secrets of the business world? Just think of the scandals for the past eight years alone. And for all the coportations that aren't getting in trouble, there's several times more that are getting away with horrible things that we know they are doing. How many companies in this country take advantage of child slavery overseas? I could go on and on about poor practices.
    Never mind the fact that most people in the country are, rightfully, of the opinion that business owners pocket way too much money for themselvse and treat their workers like sheep.


    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    It's really bad form to be so condescending to someone who outperformed you. Actually, it's asshole form. Besides, you were a poor debater AND had the wrong idea, so it doesn't really matter.
    You can't use your "victory" as an argument when dealing with people who don't believe you've won. That's very American of you, though.
    But I wouldn't care anyway, as I'm about to explain...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    That is what you get MP for not giving him a purple giraffe. Once people start declaring themselves the "winner" and refuse to discuss anything further, you can take it as a victory. It is usually a sign that you have threatened their way of thinking and they are shutting down the channels of communication in order to protect their ego.
    *sigh*.
    Kiddo, you don't understand. I know that I could have walked away claiming a more convincing "win" as soon as he did that, but it doesn't really matter. Mercury clearly doesn't understand either.
    This entirely childish charade about "winning" or "victory" is bullshit and I don't care. I consider all debate and all argument to be an intellectual endeavor. The competition of it is a counter-productive distraction.

    Basically, I hoped to learn something. In all honesty, if mercury were really right, I would love to be enlightened, but I have simply not heard very compelling cases from him. Most of them immediately invoke multiple refutations in my mind. Presuming that he's wrong, then I'd at least like to understand why he believes what he believes.

    The other end has been to inform him. Since I'm still confident I'm right, I'm going tell him why. I'm going to try to explain to him why I believe what I believe, and ideally, though unrealistically I suppose, I'd love to get him to see things my way.
    But even if I did persuade him, the achievement wouldn't be about claiming victory. Someone else could come around and somehow convince of the philosophy I have been advocating, and that would make me happy too.
    If he figured it out own his own, that would make me happy, too.
    This is not about me being a winner. This is about being true instead of false. It's about being right instead of wrong.

    Maybe because you are both FJs you have hard time relating to my goals in this, but personal and competitive aspect of it is not only not the central focus to me, it is actually a horrible burden on all things progressive.
    Try to imagine how an INTP would feel about this.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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