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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Herring View Post
    As Clemenceau said:A patriot loves his country; a nationalist hates all others.
    That was actually de Gaulle who said that. Clemenceau said war is too important to be left to generals.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    That was actually de Gaulle who said that. Clemenceau said war is too important to be left to generals.
    You are right. I was mislead by Stephen Fry who attributes the quote to Clemenceau in an episode of Planet Word. You'll also find a lot of google hits for that quote in association with Clemenceau's name...maybe Fry's doing!

    Anyway, it has little impact on the point I was trying to make.



    BUT: Since we are nitpicking - Clemenceau said "La guerre! C’est une chose trop grave pour la confier à des militaires.", no mention of generals.
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  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Herring View Post
    BUT: Since we are nitpicking - Clemenceau said "La guerre! C’est une chose trop grave pour la confier à des militaires.", no mention of generals.
    Seems you're right, but it's still a common paraphrasing of what he did say. Oh well.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Then there is the fact that the EU seeks to use soft power, trade, diplomacy etc. to try and control or influence geo-politics rather than force and military build up, ie so called soft power.
    I'm guessing this "soft power" also includes arms exports? And considering many EU members are also active members of NATO.

  5. #45
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    I'm guessing this "soft power" also includes arms exports? And considering many EU members are also active members of NATO.
    Yeah but NATO hasnt done much, I think of it as a relic of the cold war, it wasnt even mentioned during the 9/11 wars or creation of the so called coalition of the willing.

    I know about the arms exporting in the EU but the UK is one of the principle arms traders is it not? I've read books by Mark Thomas and seen his documentaries on just how easy it is for arms trading to be undertaken from the UK, its very unregulated, along with Lord Of War those sources really convinced me that the west, particularly Britain, does take the whole "not by force but by guile" idea seriously. Deceitful and deadly.

    Although it does remind me of the quote from Sun Tsu or someone that if you wait by the banks of the river long enough you will see the body of your enemy float by. Its particular easy to eliminate threats by sowing discord or destabilising them from afar.

    Those ideas played a big part in the northern ireland low intensity conflict too.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Yeah but NATO hasnt done much, I think of it as a relic of the cold war, it wasnt even mentioned during the 9/11 wars or creation of the so called coalition of the willing.
    NATO was mentioned quite a lot during the war in Afghanistan, and NATO is still operating there as far as I know. Although I guess the technical name used is "International Security Assistance Force".

    Here's a list of casualities in Afghanistan, including those from EU members: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coaliti...the_fatalities

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    NATO was mentioned quite a lot during the war in Afghanistan, and NATO is still operating there as far as I know. Although I guess the technical name used is "International Security Assistance Force".

    Here's a list of casualities in Afghanistan, including those from EU members: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coaliti...the_fatalities
    This is totally unreported world stuff in the UK you know?

    I tend to pay particular attention to this kind of think in the newsprint and broadcasting and I've no real recollection of it. How did you come to know about this Peguy?

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    This is totally unreported world stuff in the UK you know?

    I tend to pay particular attention to this kind of think in the newsprint and broadcasting and I've no real recollection of it. How did you come to know about this Peguy?
    I have several sources. I do have friends who served in Afghanistan and told me about many of the European nations there, particularly the French contingent. I've also heard about the Polish contingent in both Afghanistan and Iraq. I also heard about a report claiming that German soldiers are too fat to fight. So I basically hear these things here or there.

  9. #49
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    In case @SilkRoad is still interested in why Europe hasn't gone to war since WWII, and touching upon the issue of nationalism too in this discussion, Jerry Z Muller offers an intriguing reason why in "Us and Them: The Enduring Power of Ethnic Nationalism". Muller's basic argument is that peace prevailed in Europe in the post-war period because the major goal of nationalism was achieved. Europe's states were more ethnically homogenous than they were prior to both World Wars. So the issue of disputed claims over ethnic territories that sparked both wars was rendered moot.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    In case @SilkRoad is still interested in why Europe hasn't gone to war since WWII, and touching upon the issue of nationalism too in this discussion, Jerry Z Muller offers an intriguing reason why in "Us and Them: The Enduring Power of Ethnic Nationalism". Muller's basic argument is that peace prevailed in Europe in the post-war period because the major goal of nationalism was achieved. Europe's states were more ethnically homogenous than they were prior to both World Wars. So the issue of disputed claims over ethnic territories that sparked both wars was rendered moot.
    Thank you, sounds interesting. A couple of years ago I was totally fascinated by Tony Judt's book Postwar, about Europe since 1945. I remember the section on the Yugoslav wars was titled "The Reckoning", which was rather chilling.

    Unfortunately, when I read books like that I'm totally involved and interested and then afterwards...I hardly remember any details at all. I'm just like "it's awesome! READ IT!"

    I was similarly impressed by Geert Mak's In Europe.
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