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  1. #31
    Superwoman Red Herring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Il Morto Che Parla View Post
    No, it is the result of people reacting to the EU attempt to take over their countries. How is "more EU" going to solve the problem? Send the Germans to invade Greece and Hungary so they won't vote for teh evil "fascists"...?

    Regarding the award of the Nobel Prize to the EU, my only reaction was: LOL
    Well, we seem to have very different ideas about nationalism. What you call "the EU attempt to take over" is a good thing in my eyes and what you mockingly trivialize as "teh evil "fascists"" - especially since you mentioned Hungary -. is indeed a big problem and a very negative developement in my opinion.
    The good life is one inspired by love and guided by knowledge. Neither love without knowledge, nor knowledge without love can produce a good life. - Bertrand Russell
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  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Herring View Post
    Well, we seem to have very different ideas about nationalism. What you call "the EU attempt to take over" is a good thing in my eyes and what you mockingly trivialize as "teh evil "fascists"" - especially since you mentioned Hungary -. is indeed a big problem and a very negative developement in my opinion.
    If you think it is a bad thing, surely you can still see it is a result of the actions of the EU and the failed economic experiment. The more the EU tries to impose itself, the more those countries will react by voting for nationalism.

    So your only answer will have to be less democracy and more direct EU control, against the people's own wishes. Do you really think that will work?

  3. #33
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    "If you rob people of their identity, if you rob them of their democracy then all they are left with is nationalism and violence. I can only hope and pray that the Euro project is destroyed by the markets before that really happens."

    http://www.dailypaul.com/150482/nige...m-and-violence


  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Il Morto Che Parla View Post
    If you think it is a bad thing, surely you can still see it is a result of the actions of the EU and the failed economic experiment. The more the EU tries to impose itself, the more those countries will react by voting for nationalism.

    So your only answer will have to be less democracy and more direct EU control, against the people's own wishes. Do you really think that will work?
    You are creating false dichotomies here. The alternative to nationalism (which does not automatically equal more democracy) is not "less democracy" (which you seem to equalize with less democracy) but more democracy at a European level and probably also a) more education and b) solutions - national or European - to the social and economical problems that lead to the frustration.

    I think people turn to national identity at times of crises. They reduce the "monkey zone" circle of solidarity as a reaction to a real or perceived lack of ressources. The solution to that is to solve the perception and/or the real problems and create more direct representation at an EU level.
    It is often the poor, the unemployed and the less educated that turn to nationalism.
    The good life is one inspired by love and guided by knowledge. Neither love without knowledge, nor knowledge without love can produce a good life. - Bertrand Russell
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  5. #35
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    I am until today not sure about Chavez or Hussein and the american idea behind it. On the one hand you have the country selling itself to China, why would they want to hurt Europe on the other hand, cause they are probably their easiest allies (and no. 1 trade partner) in the future. On the other hand, with problems piling up, you of course try to save your ass and secure your incomes.
    There is a longer history of alliance between the US and China than the US and EU, during the cold war the US was in a pact with China and sought to accentuate the differences between China and Russia, its even mentioned in the movie Red Dawn in which a downed US pilot in a post-invasion America tells them that the Chinese have been fighting the Russians.

    Also there are similarities between the US ruling elites and rising capitalists of China and privileged US dynastic politicans and those in the Chinese Politbureau, plus the US and UK believe that they can exploit China's wealth to ensure a little more longevity for their over bloated financial sectors.

    The EU really does have a different model of social economic growth to either the Chinese or US, it is not favourable to financial sector growth and dependency the way that the UK-US are, in the UK-US model the tail wags the dog if you ask me. I'm not sure that the EU would have inevitably moved towards jobless growth like the US, maybe but I think things really are different in Germany and provided they would maintain hegemony I couldnt see that changing. Mind you the French just want to have their own version of wall street from what I've been told and become like the US or UK.

  6. #36
    Don't pet me. JAVO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    I'm just saying I have no clue what the EU has done to earn the Nobel Peace Prize. Apparently the committee specifically said that it had to do with the EU's role in preventing conflicts, so...
    Obama won the last one. Apparently, the trend shows that the committee is getting desperate because there aren't many possible recipients these days.

    ...or... ?

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Herring View Post
    You are creating false dichotomies here. The alternative to nationalism (which does not automatically equal more democracy) is not "less democracy" (which you seem to equalize with less democracy) but more democracy at a European level
    There are two problems with that; the EU has a huge democratic deficit (its institutions developed to circumvent rather than reflect the will of democratic majorities), and one's democratic voice drastically decreases as the size of the electoral district increases-citizens would feel (and essentially be) powerless and controlled by policies decided at a European level, leading to further alienation as the mandate of the EU grows, strengthening nationalist movements. You would essentially have to carefully rebuild EU institutions from the ground up to counteract this.

    Also, I think linguistic challenges and culturally entrenched national identities (the nation-state developed in Europe, and mass literacy, not to mention mass media, developed alongside it) would make it extremely difficult to create a European-wide 'imagined community' strong enough to hold together a unitary* European state, especially in the absence of a dominant party along the lines of the Congress Party in post-colonial India (which seems the closest comparison to what you hope the EU will become, as far as democratic structure and national identity is concerned).

    Basically, I think there are few ways in which it could work and many ways in which it could go wrong....and the consequence of wrong turns would probably be worse than the current reality.

    *'subsidiarity' is nothing more than the central government delegating authority at its convenience-true federalism, and the political trust that it would be maintained, would be required to build a functional European state in the absence of a strong 'imagined community'.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Herring View Post
    You are creating false dichotomies here. The alternative to nationalism (which does not automatically equal more democracy) is not "less democracy" (which you seem to equalize with less democracy) but more democracy at a European level and probably also a) more education and b) solutions - national or European - to the social and economical problems that lead to the frustration.

    I think people turn to national identity at times of crises. They reduce the "monkey zone" circle of solidarity as a reaction to a real or perceived lack of ressources. The solution to that is to solve the perception and/or the real problems and create more direct representation at an EU level.
    It is often the poor, the unemployed and the less educated that turn to nationalism.
    Do the native populations have any choice in having their national sovereignity replaced by a pan-Europe 'democracy'?

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Il Morto Che Parla View Post
    Do the native populations have any choice in having their national sovereignity replaced by a pan-Europe 'democracy'?
    Sure. Why the sarcastic quotation marks?

    Personally, I think nation states are an outdated concept. My vision is that within one or two generations we could have strong semi-autonomous regions, equally strong cooperating supranational unions and weak nationstates as brokers between the two levels.

    How much sense does a nation state make in cases like Belgium anyway? It was an advancement in the 19th century, sure. If it's a multiethnic state you get conflict and instability and if it's a monoethnic state you get provincialism and nationalistic chauvinism./only slightly exaggerating.


    As Clemenceau said:A patriot loves his country; a nationalist hates all others.
    The good life is one inspired by love and guided by knowledge. Neither love without knowledge, nor knowledge without love can produce a good life. - Bertrand Russell
    A herring's blog
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  10. #40
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    I am once again disappointed in the choice for the Nobel Peace Prize. Do I need to remind the people of Earth, how incredibly PEACEFUL the planet Saturn is? Do we start wars? No. Do we have poverty? No. Do we even bother you with our gravitational pull like that hussy Jupiter? No.

    We're just floating out there... minding our own business. We have better things to do than throw comets at you, or try to pull you away from the glory of the Sun. We would also like to add that we take care of over sixty moons with no mishaps. Plus, we keep track of rings. Glorious rings, we would like to point out.

    So next year, when you vote, think of the true name of peace: Saturn.

    -This message paid for by the council for "A better planet than you."-

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