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  1. #1
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Default what if taxes in usa

    so today i was thinking about income taxes and the benefits of having high taxes and that certain american political parties doesent want to raise taxes in usa, even tho it would greatly benefit the people in general. this is because A LOT of people in usa doesent want their money "taken away from them", so the politicians naturally have to please the people in this regard.

    this got me thinking what if:

    You wouldnt need to get medical insurance to get a proper health care and it was freely(or for very low cost) available for everyone.
    Medication for people who need it but cant afford and discount of medication that would otherwise cost you even slightest too much.
    Homes for orphans.
    Everyone with enough money to live by, rent, food, electricity, clothing, medical heath care etc and not having to think if celebrating christmas or birthday would make you eat beans for 3 months or having to think if they can buy an ice cream or not. whether they can get a job or not, but forcing them to try to find one, unless they are single parents of a small child or have some disability.
    Social support that would help people(including refugees) to find jobs, home, help disabled, help depressed or otherwise mentally unhealthy people, help people to get rid of drugs/alcohol etc that is preventing them to live a full and happy life.
    Free education, including university and other higher class schools(but excluding study materials for higher education, but offering libraries where you could borrow all books for free).
    Government taking better care of public areas, such as supporting public transportation, building better roads for those who want to use cars etc.
    etc
    etc
    etc
    and not wasting tax money on stupid crap like bombs to kill heathens in the other side of the world

    But you would have to pay income taxes of 6%-47%, which would be roughly:

    1500$(earned in month) = 15%
    2000$ = 20%
    3000$ = 30%
    4000$ = 35%
    6000$ = 40%
    10000$ = 45%
    15000$ = 47%, which is max

    so my question is, would you prefer to live in a society where taxing was bit higher than it is nowadays in USA, but people would be taken care of better than in a first world country or would you rather have the model where you pay less taxes and not give a flying fuck about other people? and why?
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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  2. #2
    Honor Thy Inferior Such Irony's Avatar
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    Definitely the first option. I'm willing to sacrifice a little for the betterment of our society. I'm very politically left in that sense.
    INtp
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  3. #3
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    so my question is, would you prefer to live in a society where taxing was bit higher than it is nowadays in USA, but people would be taken care of better than in a first world country or would you rather have the model where you pay less taxes and not give a flying fuck about other people? and why?
    We can pay for things like health care and education on our own, or we can pay through our taxes, but either way, we pay for it. Except, in the current system, if we do not have enough money we do not pay, and we do not receive the benefit. In such cases, society loses the benefit of a healthy, stable, educated citizen and member of the workforce. It seems more fair to me, and to achieve the greatest good for the greatest number, for everyone to contribute to the provision of these resources through progressive taxation. Then the resources are rationed based on ability to benefit rather than ability to pay. I don't consider myself a Marxist, but there is merit to "from each according to his ability; to each according to his need". After all, it is how the typical family operates.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  4. #4
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    Yes I'd prefer to pay the taxes.
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

  5. #5
    Senior Member Snoopy22's Avatar
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    Default

    In the late 90’s I decided to track every penny we spent over a 6-month period and the taxes required on receipts along with all governmental fees (and any hidden taxes like gasoline taxes and taxes required on government mandates (insurance)). We were paying around 50% of all wages earned to some form of government (city, county, state, federal), with a two person income of around $54,000. If people realized the extent of taxes they paid they would be more upset about the pathetic inability of our government efficiently manage it intelligently.

    An honest and well-managed government requires less in tax revenue, but that requires a population with those same characteristic. If you keep feeding obese people all they want they will never lose weight until they cause irreversible damage to themselves (most times higher taxes do not mean better anything other then higher taxes).

  6. #6
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Most of all I'd rather people be educated on how taxes scale.

    I'm surprised to still find people who don't understand the tax bracket. To use the OP's example with
    1500$ = 15%
    2000$ = 20%
    3000$ = 30%
    4000$ = 35%
    6000$ = 40%
    10000$ = 45%
    15000$ = 47%

    It should be:
    $0 to $1500 at 15%
    $1500 to $2000 at 20%
    $2000 to $3000 at 30%
    etc.

    So what you end up with if you make $2500 for example:
    ($1,500 - 0) x 0.15 = $225
    (2,000 - 1,500) x 0.20 = 100
    (3,000 - 2,500) x 0.30 = 150
    Total = $475
    Which is clearly not 30% of the entire $2500. It's more like 19% of the whole 2500.

  7. #7
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles View Post
    Most of all I'd rather people be educated on how taxes scale.

    I'm surprised to still find people who don't understand the tax bracket. To use the OP's example with
    1500$ = 15%
    2000$ = 20%
    3000$ = 30%
    4000$ = 35%
    6000$ = 40%
    10000$ = 45%
    15000$ = 47%

    It should be:
    $0 to $1500 at 15%
    $1500 to $2000 at 20%
    $2000 to $3000 at 30%
    etc.
    actually it is(as portrayed in official website of taxpayers association of finland):
    €/month - tax %

    80 6,6 %
    160 6,6 %
    240 6,6 %
    320 6,6 %
    400 6,6 %
    480 6,6 %
    560 6,6 %
    640 6,6 %
    720 7,4 %
    800 8,3 %
    880 9,1 %
    960 10,1 %
    1040 11,1 %
    1120 12,1 %
    1200 12,9 %
    1280 13,7 %
    1360 14,8 %
    1440 15,9 %
    1520 17,1 %
    1600 18,1 %
    1680 19,1 %
    1760 20,0 %
    1840 20,7 %
    1920 21,2 %
    2000 21,7 %
    2080 22,2 %
    2160 22,9 %
    2240 23,7 %
    2320 24,4 %
    2400 25,1 %
    2480 25,7 %
    2560 26,3 %
    2640 26,8 %
    2720 27,3 %
    2800 27,9 %
    2880 28,4 %
    2960 28,8 %
    3040 29,3 %
    3120 29,7 %
    3200 30,1 %
    3280 30,4 %
    3360 30,8 %
    3440 31,2 %
    3520 31,6 %
    3600 32,0 %
    3680 32,3 %
    3760 32,7 %
    3840 33,1 %
    3920 33,4 %
    4000 33,7 %
    etc
    etc

    im sure there are other ways or portraying this too, but there is no need to write 0-1500, 1500-2000 etc.

    also you made an mistake on those brackets of yours it should had been 1500-1999 = 15%, not 0-1500 = 15%.
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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  8. #8
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snoopy22 View Post
    In the late 90’s I decided to track every penny we spent over a 6-month period and the taxes required on receipts along with all governmental fees (and any hidden taxes like gasoline taxes and taxes required on government mandates (insurance)). We were paying around 50% of all wages earned to some form of government (city, county, state, federal), with a two person income of around $54,000. If people realized the extent of taxes they paid they would be more upset about the pathetic inability of our government efficiently manage it intelligently.

    An honest and well-managed government requires less in tax revenue, but that requires a population with those same characteristic. If you keep feeding obese people all they want they will never lose weight until they cause irreversible damage to themselves (most times higher taxes do not mean better anything other then higher taxes).
    im only talking about income taxes, not gas tax, food tax etc.

    and this is an imagined scenario, which is reality in some countries, but i dont see it very likely for USA to pull this through properly in a long long time. people are still too afraid of communism due to propaganda ages ago(and general mistrust on the government being able to take care of shit), thus get scared of things that are for common good and generally prefer more or less the "everyone takes care of themselves" way of living.
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

    Read

  9. #9
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    im sure there are other ways or portraying this too, but there is no need to write 0-1500, 1500-2000 etc.

    also you made an mistake on those brackets of yours it should had been 1500-1999 = 15%, not 0-1500 = 15%.
    Well that's just how it is here. I don't live in Finland.

    Also we don't do 1500 to 1999 because the range between is taxed. 1500 to 1999 is equivalent to $499 at a given rate. If you start the next rate at 2000 to 2999 you have $999 at the next rate. That comes out to $1498 which is missing two dollars from what you actually had.

    Edit:
    Or put another way:
    0 to 1500 means the first 1500 is taxed at 15% So if you make $2,000:
    The first 1500 (0 to 1500) is taxed at 15%, or otherwise 15% of $1500, which comes out to 225 for that portion of income
    1500 to 2000 is taxed at 20% or in other words 20% of $500 which comes out to 100 for that portion of income

    If you make 2000, 1500 of it is taxed at one rate, and 500 is taxed at another rate, and the sum of that is what you pay.
    We do this so making one extra dollar doesn't up your rate by 5% for the entire thing, which would prohibit people from making too much money if they don't want a tax hike on their entire income.

  10. #10
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    so my question is, would you prefer to live in a society where taxing was bit higher than it is nowadays in USA, but people would be taken care of better than in a first world country or would you rather have the model where you pay less taxes and not give a flying fuck about other people? and why?
    I would like to have a tax system which was like Sweden, for reasons of redistribution alone, although I would really like it if there were good services like Sweden aswell, although I know for sure that high taxes do not guarantee high spending or good spending and spending does not guarantee good services either. Those things are more or less determined by cultural factors alone. There has to be money but without the cultural factors spending is going to mismanaged, mishandled, squandered etc.

    I've seen it within a single agency, within a single hospital with the NHS even.

    Managerialism within the UK and USA is a bigger problem and liable to screw up any increases in spending and resources than anyplace else in the world.

    As a result its a easy argument for ideologues on the right to make in opposing taxation.

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