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  1. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    so my question is, would you prefer to live in a society where taxing was bit higher than it is nowadays in USA, but people would be taken care of better than in a first world country or would you rather have the model where you pay less taxes and not give a flying fuck about other people? and why?
    I would like to have a tax system which was like Sweden, for reasons of redistribution alone, although I would really like it if there were good services like Sweden aswell, although I know for sure that high taxes do not guarantee high spending or good spending and spending does not guarantee good services either. Those things are more or less determined by cultural factors alone. There has to be money but without the cultural factors spending is going to mismanaged, mishandled, squandered etc.

    I've seen it within a single agency, within a single hospital with the NHS even.

    Managerialism within the UK and USA is a bigger problem and liable to screw up any increases in spending and resources than anyplace else in the world.

    As a result its a easy argument for ideologues on the right to make in opposing taxation.

  2. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    so my question is, would you prefer to live in a society where taxing was bit higher than it is nowadays in USA, but people would be taken care of better than in a first world country or would you rather have the model where you pay less taxes and not give a flying fuck about other people? and why?
    I would like to have a tax system which was like Sweden, for reasons of redistribution alone, although I would really like it if there were good services like Sweden aswell, although I know for sure that high taxes do not guarantee high spending or good spending and spending does not guarantee good services either. Those things are more or less determined by cultural factors alone. There has to be money but without the cultural factors spending is going to mismanaged, mishandled, squandered etc.

    I've seen it within a single agency, within a single hospital with the NHS even.

    Managerialism within the UK and USA is a bigger problem and liable to screw up any increases in spending and resources than anyplace else in the world.

    As a result its a easy argument for ideologues on the right to make in opposing taxation.

  3. #13
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Our tax dollars are not utilized efficiently so I do not believe good money should be thrown afer bad. Realize in addition to the federal rate, there are social security taxes, state taxes, sales taxes and I think medicare taxes. It is way too damn much money.

    Oh also property taxes. I pay 14k a year in those alone.

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  4. #14
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    Our tax dollars are not utilized efficiently so I do not believe good money should be thrown afer bad. Realize in addition to the federal rate, there are social security taxes, state taxes, sales taxes and I think medicare taxes. It is way too damn much money.

    Oh also property taxes. I pay 14k a year in those alone.
    i know there are other taxes also, im not talking about changing them(except that this would eliminate the need for social security tax and medical taxes), just about increasing income taxes. i mentioned that this is about income taxes at the beginning and used only word tax, assuming that people would realize that this is only about income taxes
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  5. #15
    Senior Member Snoopy22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    im only talking about income taxes, not gas tax, food tax etc.

    and this is an imagined scenario, which is reality in some countries, but i dont see it very likely for USA to pull this through properly in a long long time. people are still too afraid of communism due to propaganda ages ago(and general mistrust on the government being able to take care of shit), thus get scared of things that are for common good and generally prefer more or less the "everyone takes care of themselves" way of living.
    A tangent, more then imagined but not quite a hypothesis.

    My knowledge of Communism and the United States is businesses and corporations during the 1950s gave their employees good benefits and wages (other factors also being involved) due to their fear that the American people would vote in Communistic representatives who would eventually change our form of government. When business believed they were on secure footing of this not happening in the 1970s, work and wage conditions begin to erode, this erosion increased during the 1980s/90s to where they have placed the citizens of the United States in a position of doubting our form of Capitalism may no longer be better then other forms of ism’s.

  6. #16
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    Our tax dollars are not utilized efficiently so I do not believe good money should be thrown afer bad. Realize in addition to the federal rate, there are social security taxes, state taxes, sales taxes and I think medicare taxes. It is way too damn much money.

    Oh also property taxes. I pay 14k a year in those alone.
    I would eliminate all of it in favor of a progressive STATE income tax, with each state then levied to contribute to the federal revenues, based on such factors as population and per capita wealth and income.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  7. #17
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    i know there are other taxes also, im not talking about changing them(except that this would eliminate the need for social security tax and medical taxes), just about increasing income taxes. i mentioned that this is about income taxes at the beginning and used only word tax, assuming that people would realize that this is only about income taxes
    The affect is cumulative though. For example:
    - In 2013, the incremental federal tax rate is scheduled to be 15% - 39.6% based on certain income thresholds
    - State taxes vary a great deal. In some cases, incremental rates can be in excess of 10%. In the state I'm in, they are 5% flat rate across the board
    - You pay 7.65% social security and medicate taxes up to a certain limit (low 100k range)
    - You pay property taxes on your principal residence, which varies greatly depending on where you live. If you're in California, this can be quite low because of various laws they have. If you're in my state and live in a county (or municipality) with little to no corporate tax base, your taxes can be quite high - let's say it's another 3 - 5% of your income which is a wild guess but probably not far off for a lot of places

    So, an average middle class family can easily be spending 30 - 40% of income income on taxes. Then, on top of that, for every dollar you spend, you pay sales taxes which range in the area of 6 - 10%, depending on what you buy and where you live. That's for food, going to the movies, clothing, a new car, etc.

    Then it should also be realized that the government charges your place of employment the same amount they charge you for social security and medicare taxes, which of course comes out of the employee's pockets and affects their wages at the end of the day.

    Maybe we should just give all our money to the government and they they can distribute it evenly across everyone regardless as tho how hard they have worked to get where they are.

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  8. #18
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I would eliminate all of it in favor of a progressive STATE income tax, with each state then levied to contribute to the federal revenues, based on such factors as population and per capita wealth and income.
    That will probably just result in some states not raising any and then becoming more dependent on the federal aid funded by all the states that do pay.
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  9. #19
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    Nanny states won't work in the long run because

    -there's no incentive for civil servants to spend other people's money efficiently.

    -there's no incentive for individuals to produce if they get to live off other people's labor.

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