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  1. #51
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    I tend to not really care how the already committed are going to vote, in terms of the broad electorate.

    Last night was a matter of positioning to those voters who are not politically inclined outside of election month, who might not have a lot of political background to bring to the table (since if they did, they've likely been following things outside election season and already have an opinion). For those without any detailed knowledge to apply to their evaluation of the candidates, Romney positioned himself better. That's about all there is to say right now. I'm not sure why there are continual "yeah, but's"; it's not like those points are inaccurate, but they don't really have a bearing on who presented best to the uninformed voter.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

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  2. #52
    my floof is luxury Wind Up Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Even without the voodoo economics Romney has a problem for people that have followed him closely (which probably aren't the undecided voters). In the debate last night he took a huge leap to the center, pretty out of the blue. He also seems to be doing this weird pick and choose thing with his economic plan. He kept replying to everything Obama said about his plan that was supposedly untrue with righteousness and incredulity, but who could blame Obama? Nobody really knows what Romney's plan is, he keeps us guessing. It's put him in this situation where at the debates he can make up what he needs about himself on the spot. For me, while he had better form, he came across like an oily salesman, because I know his history. It would sort of be like me supporting Scott Brown instead of Elizabeth Warren because Brown has been pretending to be moderate left as of late. I don't believe if for a second.
    I think you're making a highly valid point here, and it's actually one that was made to me last night as well. But I think it's important to point out that as far as his actual record goes in terms of what Romney has done in office, and not just the pandering he's done on the campaign trail, he's always basically been a centrist. I mean, in his own right, Obama relied on fairly leftist rhetoric during his '08 campaign, only to pull fairly hard towards the center once elected. I feel it's crucial point out that what these two men have in common is that they're essentially pragmatic, and regardless of what they talk that fact is gonna make them more alike than they are different.

    That being the case, the question for me is who's actually gonna be able to get more done in the next four years. I feel like it's entirely possible that with a Democrat-held Senate, Romney could be just as stymied as Obama has frequently found himself to be in the past four years. But I don't believe that the Democrats will straight up stonewall the man in the same way that Republicans have done to Obama. Not because they don't want to, but because I feel they've never shown the party discipline necessary to effect that sorta thing. I mean, they were barely able to get their shit together for the two years they held a fuckin' supermajority.
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  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I tend to not really care how the already committed are going to vote, in terms of the broad electorate.

    Last night was a matter of positioning to those voters who are not politically inclined outside of election month, who might not have a lot of political background to bring to the table (since if they did, they've likely been following things outside election season and already have an opinion). For those without any detailed knowledge to apply to their evaluation of the candidates, Romney positioned himself better. That's about all there is to say right now. I'm not sure why there are continual "yeah, but's"; it's not like those points are inaccurate, but they don't really have a bearing on who presented best to the uninformed voter.

    My response contextually sucked.

  4. #54
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    In some ways, I felt that President Obama's demeanor was strategic ... looking to the speaker to retake the floor, making more eye contact with the audience and with the camera and not with Romney. I could sense forbearance in Obama, and some well-concealed (and then some not well-concealed) impatience with Romney's approach. I'm confident that the President is a 9w1, maybe even my tritype (937) - I get a lot of resonance from him.

    Romney definitely had more fire, and even if 3/4 of what he said was way more centrist or a contradiction from lots of other stuff he's said, the impression he gave was a more energetic one. I do think though that the President held back and I sense it was with intention more than for lack of having a response. There were some obvious retorts I was surprised he didn't take advantage of ... esp on health care. So I'm curious to watch the next debate and see where that goes.

    I do think overall Romney did hold his ground and then some, looking like a polished, feisty yet respectful challenger, just what he's supposed to look like. So on those grounds, I have to say he comes out of the night appearing to have achieved his goals here.
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  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by jontherobot View Post
    I'm coming to understand not crazy does not mean better.
    How is this true?

  6. #56
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    Just starting to watch this now. Initial impressions:

    Holy shit, Romney is pretty well-spoken. Also, bam, starting out with the anecodes rather than the stats. Good ol' availability heuristic--it works.

    Obama seems to be taking the approach of agreeing with Romney on some stuff and then making the case that he'd improve upon those sentiments, effectively trying to 'supersede' him. Romney seems to be pushing back and trying to create distance between their approaches.

    edit: oh, much of that changed pretty dramatically.

  7. #57
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    Romney definitely put on a better show, but he needed to do that. His many days of practicing paid off. To make the impression he did, though, he needed to go out on a limb with the facts, and contradict or at least gloss over some of the consistent claims/themes of his campaign so far. This could backfire if the Obama campaign is able to expose it promptly. I'm not sure Obama's "holding back" was strategy. I think he just had an off night. There were many easy arguments to Romney's claims that he passed up somehow. He did not present himself well by comparison.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  8. #58
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Romney definitely had more fire, and even if 3/4 of what he said was way more centrist or a contradiction from lots of other stuff he's said, the impression he gave was a more energetic one. I do think though that the President held back and I sense it was with intention more than for lack of having a response. There were some obvious retorts I was surprised he didn't take advantage of ... esp on health care. So I'm curious to watch the next debate and see where that goes.
    Romney definitely had more fire.

    In the bit I saw, Obama seemed to be struggling for words. And where Romney would try to jump in with concrete details (regardless of whether they were accurate or not, althoug hhe stated them confidently), Obama seemed like he just wanted to keep pulling things back to a broad generalized level that didn't contain what Sensors typically refer to as "meat." At some point, an iNtuitive has to jump in and start pressing with specific details, not constantly generalize, if he wants to gain the trust and understanding of a large chunk of the populace. it came off more like the answers someone might give on an essay test if they did not remember the material in detail. So I hope this was not strategic on his part, because I think it was a misplaced strategy. He could have actually "sealed the deal" last night with a strong showing, but now the election could be slowly slipping back to an "up for grabs" scenario if things don't change.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

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  9. #59
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    In the bit I saw, Obama seemed to be struggling for words.
    Yes, I saw the first half-hour and most of the last half-hour, but missed some of the places where Obama did indeed seem to be more prolifically umming and ahhing.

    I was surprised that he let some of his annoyance show through too. That's why I wondered if it had any aspect of (at least initially) strategy to it. Definitely thought at the beginning that sense of forbearance I picked up on was ... but you could see it deflating to irritation at some points. Which is not his style.

    It would drive me nuts after a while to debate in a two party scenario, where everything basically reduces to "I'm right and you're wrong" or some other variations on the see-saw. That's where I would have the hardest time having to endure such a thing ... where I've laid everything out plain, and done so with integrity, and then over and over again having to defend, defend, defend.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
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    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  10. #60
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Even without the voodoo economics Romney has a problem for people that have followed him closely (which probably aren't the undecided voters). In the debate last night he took a huge leap to the center, pretty out of the blue. He also seems to be doing this weird pick and choose thing with his economic plan. He kept replying to everything Obama said about his plan that was supposedly untrue with righteousness and incredulity, but who could blame Obama? Nobody really knows what Romney's plan is, he keeps us guessing. It's put him in this situation where at the debates he can make up what he needs about himself on the spot. For me, while he had better form, he came across like an oily salesman, because I know his history. It would sort of be like me supporting Scott Brown instead of Elizabeth Warren because Brown has been pretending to be moderate left as of late. I don't believe if for a second.
    The jump to the center didn't hurt him with with conservatives because he threw enough red meat to the conservatives (e.g. trickle down government, cut PBS, and mentioning the declaration and constitution) and because he ultimately won and people like winners. Winners win.
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