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  1. #1
    Alexander the Terrible yenom's Avatar
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    Post China is not a communist or socialist country

    Anyone who tells you that today's China is communist and socialist is lying.

    China is a actually an authoritarian capitalist country, where the rich gets richer and the poor gets poorer. Economic growth is capitalist and state driven. it is a form of state capitalism where government maintains indirect control and ownership over large strategic industries and corporations. The economy is essentially capitalist (but they don't call it that), economic freedom is very strong, but political freedom remains weak.
    The fear of poverty turns people into slaves of money.

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  2. #2

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    Quote Originally Posted by yenom View Post
    Anyone who tells you that today's China is communist and socialist is lying.

    China is a actually an authoritarian capitalist country, where the rich gets richer and the poor gets poorer. Economic growth is capitalist and state driven. it is a form of state capitalism where government maintains indirect control and ownership over large strategic industries and corporations. The economy is essentially capitalist (but they don't call it that), economic freedom is very strong, but political freedom remains weak.
    Economic freedom is strong?

    Anyway, I think you could describe it as "market maoism", there are more capitalist and more traditionalist, meaning more orthodoxly maoist, regions and even though it is a "one party in control and the others in prison" regime there are political differences within the establishment too.

    It probably approximates more closely and more quickly a form of dynastic rule but some western democracies do that very well already too.

    Although one thing I would say is that its as unlikely to be celebrated by ideological capitalists as ideological socialists, maybe some hardline commies would insist its a better social order for a country in its state of development to the capitalist alternative but I doubt it, I'd say that the real capitalists, not some basement living theorist or fanboy, would love the place.

  3. #3
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Well, the contents of the OP aside, I have heard it said that China today is more like something run by Chiang Kai-shek than Mao Tse-tung.

    I have, at another point, state that China appears to me almost a generic model of what I consider the norms of a fascist economy.

    I do laugh whenever anyone calls it communist.
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  4. #4
    Senior Member tkae.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yenom View Post
    Anyone who tells you that today's China is communist and socialist is lying.

    China is a actually an authoritarian capitalist country, where the rich gets richer and the poor gets poorer. Economic growth is capitalist and state driven. it is a form of state capitalism where government maintains indirect control and ownership over large strategic industries and corporations. The economy is essentially capitalist (but they don't call it that), economic freedom is very strong, but political freedom remains weak.
    I'll grant you that they're no longer communist, but they are socialist. Since the 1980s it's been in their constitution that they're a socialist nation. They've made a number of strides towards capitalism to make themselves more powerful on the international stage, yes, but they're still socialist. And their economy isn't "essentially" capitalist, it's socialist "with Chinese characteristics". It's half and half between government-owned services or production and an expanding open-market that's still so heavily regulated even Google can't compete with a government-funded service. Not even Wal-Mart has succeeded in China. It's not a capitalist market if the major international corporations in two different business sectors can't get a foothold. It's a socialist market.

    You can also make the argument that it's authoritarian, but per the conventions of traditional authoritarianism their ruling party is too large to truly be authoritarian. Their single-party state is driven by a group of powerful men and not a single man who exerts influential pressure on the others who have any kind of power. Basically, modern China is less authoritarian than Stalinist Russia, so that should tell you something.

    Plus, China refers to itself as "a socialist state" per its 1982 constitution, and uses that term to describe Marxist-Leninist communism just like in the USSR. So you can argue that the Western's definition of communism and their definition of socialism aren't good for deciding which of the two they are, but it's either heavily-refined communism or socialism. Authoritarianism isn't really on the menu
    "Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away." -Ekaku Hakuin
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  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Well, the contents of the OP aside, I have heard it said that China today is more like something run by Chiang Kai-shek than Mao Tse-tung.

    I have, at another point, state that China appears to me almost a generic model of what I consider the norms of a fascist economy.

    I do laugh whenever anyone calls it communist.
    I dont necessarily laugh at it being called communist, although I wouldnt like it described as socialist but then its my own ideological blinkers in play maybe.

    Do think it is methodically fascist, also given some of their beliefs about human origins and the chinese having a seperate origin to the rest of the world it could easily be going in the full blown fascist direction some day.

    Funny I just got through reading an essay or two by George Plekhanov, a Russian Marxist, who opposed wholesale nationalisation of land because he thought it was more likely to add up to what he describes as "oriental despotism", using examples of when chinese bureaucrats had all land ownership confered to the state during its fuedal era.

    In all those instances I think there was more than socialism in the mix, in fact I'd say that socialism was the much, much lesser partner in any of those examples current or past of so called socialist regimes and whether they turned capitalist or not or have elections or not there's still those same cultural patterns. I doubt Putin would be releasing calenders of himself engaged in Iron Man feats if it where otherwise.

    The litmuss test is surely that mass strikes and running battles between security forces and strikers resulting in deaths and injuries cast doubt on it being either socialist or a workers paradise.

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by tkae. View Post
    I'll grant you that they're no longer communist, but they are socialist. Since the 1980s it's been in their constitution that they're a socialist nation. They've made a number of strides towards capitalism to make themselves more powerful on the international stage, yes, but they're still socialist. And their economy isn't "essentially" capitalist, it's socialist "with Chinese characteristics". It's half and half between government-owned services or production and an expanding open-market that's still so heavily regulated even Google can't compete with a government-funded service. Not even Wal-Mart has succeeded in China. It's not a capitalist market if the major international corporations in two different business sectors can't get a foothold. It's a socialist market.

    You can also make the argument that it's authoritarian, but per the conventions of traditional authoritarianism their ruling party is too large to truly be authoritarian. Their single-party state is driven by a group of powerful men and not a single man who exerts influential pressure on the others who have any kind of power. Basically, modern China is less authoritarian than Stalinist Russia, so that should tell you something.

    Plus, China refers to itself as "a socialist state" per its 1982 constitution, and uses that term to describe Marxist-Leninist communism just like in the USSR. So you can argue that the Western's definition of communism and their definition of socialism aren't good for deciding which of the two they are, but it's either heavily-refined communism or socialism. Authoritarianism isn't really on the menu
    Attachment 8208

    GDH Cole says:-

    Socialism my ass.

  7. #7
    Senior Member tkae.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Attachment 8208

    GDH Cole says:-

    Socialism my ass.
    I'm pretty sure I made it extremely clear during my post that the distinction between China being a socialist or communist state is entirely semantic.

    Especially since both Russian, Vietnamese, and Chinese communism as well as the current socialist nations all speak different languages than each other, none of which are English.

    So on top of translating issues, there's the issue of self-identification.

    As I said very clearly, China self-identifies as socialist and has a socialist market system, but whether or not it's socialist or communist is up for debate since the Marxist-Leninist Russians also used the phrase "socialist state" to describe their nation.

    So put your ass back in your pants before I kick it across these forums
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  8. #8
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Regardless of what China claims to be, I do not think of it as having a socialist economy. Let me put forward three separate ideas for the definition of socialism.

    1: A society where workers own the means of production.

    2: A society where economic activity is not driven by the profit motive.

    3: A society where law is used to deliberately prevent and reverse wealth aggregation.

    China does not seem to live up to anyone of those at all. Astonishingly, I think it fails all three marks more than the USA.
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  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by tkae. View Post
    So put your ass back in your pants before I kick it across these forums

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Regardless of what China claims to be, I do not think of it as having a socialist economy. Let me put forward three separate ideas for the definition of socialism.

    1: A society where workers own the means of production.

    2: A society where economic activity is not driven by the profit motive.

    3: A society where law is used to deliberately prevent and reverse wealth aggregation.

    China does not seem to live up to anyone of those at all. Astonishingly, I think it fails all three marks more than the USA.
    I think the last one is the biggest factor.

    Although socialism as I understand it is about removing servility, not just privatising it as libertarians want to, and maximising personal responsibility/personal development to remove all kinds of dependency, not just nationalising it as welfare states do.

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