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  1. #11
    Alexander the Terrible yenom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tkae. View Post
    I'll grant you that they're no longer communist, but they are socialist. Since the 1980s it's been in their constitution that they're a socialist nation. They've made a number of strides towards capitalism to make themselves more powerful on the international stage, yes, but they're still socialist. And their economy isn't "essentially" capitalist, it's socialist "with Chinese characteristics". It's half and half between government-owned services or production and an expanding open-market that's still so heavily regulated even Google can't compete with a government-funded service. Not even Wal-Mart has succeeded in China. It's not a capitalist market if the major international corporations in two different business sectors can't get a foothold. It's a socialist market.

    You can also make the argument that it's authoritarian, but per the conventions of traditional authoritarianism their ruling party is too large to truly be authoritarian. Their single-party state is driven by a group of powerful men and not a single man who exerts influential pressure on the others who have any kind of power. Basically, modern China is less authoritarian than Stalinist Russia, so that should tell you something.

    Plus, China refers to itself as "a socialist state" per its 1982 constitution, and uses that term to describe Marxist-Leninist communism just like in the USSR. So you can argue that the Western's definition of communism and their definition of socialism aren't good for deciding which of the two they are, but it's either heavily-refined communism or socialism. Authoritarianism isn't really on the menu
    Its not socialist. Socialist involves security for the poor. There is no security for the poor in china.
    The fear of poverty turns people into slaves of money.

    "In this Caesar there are many Mariuses"~Sulla

    Conquer your inner demons first before you conquer the world.

  2. #12
    Senior Member LEGERdeMAIN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yenom View Post
    Its not socialist. Socialist involves security for the poor. There is no security for the poor in china.
    China is an Authoritarian, Communist, Socialist country. Those terms fit as neatly on china as an mbti type does on a human, they give you an indication of china's social, economic, political characteristics without explaining the discrepancies between the textbook definitions and reality.
    “Some people will tell you that slow is good – but I’m here to tell you that fast is better. I’ve always believed this, in spite of the trouble it’s caused me. Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba…”


  3. #13
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LEGERdeMAIN View Post
    China is an Authoritarian, Communist, Socialist country. Those terms fit as neatly on china as an mbti type does on a human, they give you an indication of china's social, economic, political characteristics without explaining the discrepancies between the textbook definitions and reality.
    So is America an Authoritarian, Capitalist, Libertarian country? If not why not?

  4. #14
    Senior Member LEGERdeMAIN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    So is America an Authoritarian, Capitalist, Libertarian country? If not why not?
    Is that what you think it is?
    “Some people will tell you that slow is good – but I’m here to tell you that fast is better. I’ve always believed this, in spite of the trouble it’s caused me. Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba…”


  5. #15
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LEGERdeMAIN View Post
    Is that what you think it is?
    I dont think it.

  6. #16
    Senior Member LEGERdeMAIN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I dont think it.
    ok. I think the United States is heading in the direction of a unitary state and away from the federalism that our constitution calls for. We aren't purely free market capitalists, never have been. We're moving towards socialism, although in the last decade it seems we've been trying to run towards it. Between defense spending(welfare disguised as big dumb nationalism, keeps young males off the streets), social welfare programs, corporate welfare, higher taxes, slow economic growth and high unemployment we should implode in approx. two months. Hopefully Romney turns out to be Hitler incarnate.

    It's not as libertarian as it once was, we're moving towards authoritarianism in some areas and staying the same in others. I know you've mentioned before that libertarians were responsible for our recession, but that's not quite accurate. We go through cycles of regulation-deregulation prompted, in part, by interest groups lobbying the executive branch or congress for softer regulations, favorable interpretations of existing regulations and removal of regulations already in place. But no, I don't see America as moving more towards libertarianism, unregulated markets or anything like that.

    I'd like to be more expansive on this subject, but move back to the original topic. I need to finish working first. Feel free to stab me in the face in the meantime.
    “Some people will tell you that slow is good – but I’m here to tell you that fast is better. I’ve always believed this, in spite of the trouble it’s caused me. Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba…”


  7. #17
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LEGERdeMAIN View Post
    We're moving towards socialism, although in the last decade it seems we've been trying to run towards it.
    LMAO.

    Occasionally, you're very funny.
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  8. #18
    Senior Member LEGERdeMAIN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    LMAO.

    Occasionally, you're very funny.
    Occasionally you have an insightful post. The one I've quoted is an example.
    “Some people will tell you that slow is good – but I’m here to tell you that fast is better. I’ve always believed this, in spite of the trouble it’s caused me. Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba…”


  9. #19
    Alexander the Terrible yenom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LEGERdeMAIN View Post
    China is an Authoritarian, Communist, Socialist country. Those terms fit as neatly on china as an mbti type does on a human, they give you an indication of china's social, economic, political characteristics without explaining the discrepancies between the textbook definitions and reality.
    Have you been to China before?

    Economic freedom is strong?

    Anyway, I think you could describe it as "market maoism", there are more capitalist and more traditionalist, meaning more orthodoxly maoist, regions and even though it is a "one party in control and the others in prison" regime there are political differences within the establishment too.

    It probably approximates more closely and more quickly a form of dynastic rule but some western democracies do that very well already too.

    Although one thing I would say is that its as unlikely to be celebrated by ideological capitalists as ideological socialists, maybe some hardline commies would insist its a better social order for a country in its state of development to the capitalist alternative but I doubt it, I'd say that the real capitalists, not some basement living theorist or fanboy, would love the place.
    What charcterisitics of maoism? All I see is poor people starving in the streets waiting for work and the rich gets richer. I don't see any socialism. The government by definition is a fraud that has divorced from this doctrine.

    The fear of poverty turns people into slaves of money.

    "In this Caesar there are many Mariuses"~Sulla

    Conquer your inner demons first before you conquer the world.

  10. #20
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Market Leninist political system ("market economic institutions and market-based strategies of economic accumulation exist and develop in subordination to Leninist political institutions and ideology.")

    Plus a collectivist culture.

    But shot through with intensely corrupt practice, in some places to a level potentially incompatible with naming any other governing system as dominant.

    The state in China exists as I suppose any state ever did, by force. It builds roads and trains and creates laws. That the people participate in this state is questionable. That they exist in a mono culture is also questionable, but it is accepted as true and practiced as real. To that extent then, the state exists. The rest of it they're just making up as they go along.


    /tendentious opinion
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