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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Well, it's a complicated issue to me.

    For example, even if one agrees with the article, and even if there is a candidate out there on all 50 state ballots who supposedly has not done all these things and claims to be a better person,

    (1) there is no indication that he will be a better president or not commit some OTHER type of atrocity while in office, and

    (2) it's also likely that a vote for him will simply be a vote for Romney, as our two-party system is kind of like a nuclear war stalemate... you're locked into a certain path of behavior simply out of mistrust for the other side and it's very difficult to get enough people to risk voting outside the grid simultaneously from both sides to break the lock. The risk is simply too high.

    On the other hand, there's no indication that the article is entirely accurate in its details or in describing the motivations of the current president, or that it properly weights all the actions of our current president -- besides which, since people's values differ, they might disagree on what is most important to vote for in this situation.

    I also have a response similar to Jag's, in that I hate overt emotional manipulation regardless of the side that is doing it, even if I have an opinion of my own. I'm currently pissed off about Maryland's prop 7 (new casino building), because I've been hearing one side blatantly misquote the Baltimore Sun in its ads but otherwise run a convincing-sounding ad. It gets old not just dealing with people who want to get power to do things but also trying to sift through all the lies and distortions meant to benefit one side over the other.
    Yay a real answer.

    I totally disagree with the article, and think the vast majority of what we are doing in the middle east is warranted.

    That being said, the Iraq war was a hell of an Albatross to hang around W's neck. It was a certainly warranted critique.

    However, our increasing reliance on machines (drones) to do our killing for us is growing the gap between the military decision makers and the consequences of those decisions. I don't have a problem with this by itself as long as there are strong oversights in place to keep drones from being a magic wand that we wave anytime someone somewhere in the world pisses us off.

    Our reliance on drones is allowing us to pretty much conduct covert wars where ever we want without any oversight. This frightens me, and I'm not even that much of an isolationist.

    With all this being said, I would think that the alarm bells should be ringing for Democrats on the issue (how are usually shown to be more concerned with collateral military damage than I am), but they aren't.

    I would like to know why.

    When it's us it's war mongering. When it's you it's for global security.

    At least the republicans have a faction that criticizes the issues in our party.

    I have begun to feel like most liberals, think a liberal (in the US context) worldview is without fault and indeed totally morally right.

    The Republicans aren't the party of feelings, but our moderates know that social programs are necessary for a civilized democracy, and that the needs of our most vulnerable need consideration.

    The mainline social conservatives may stick their fingers in their ears, but the establishment republicans and bosses in the beltway know that welfare is important. We just can't say so because our primary voters are particularly maladjusted at the moment.

    Where are the Democrats worried that our entitlement system isn't sustainable?

    What people don't get is that the parties are both right in part and wrong in part.

    And that's OK. It's OK that I place more emphasis on how effectively our government runs than I do on how much it provides to our poorest.

    And it's OK that you place more emphasis on social justice than you do on fiscal pragmatism.

    Your side ensures that whatever proposals I come up with include provisions to uplift the lower classes.

    And my side makes sure your proposals use funds effectively.

    It's by this measure of understood compromise that we get legislation that does the most good for the greatest number of people possible.

    The Republicans are going to have to change to stay relevant, any political thinker with more than three neurons to rub together knows this.

    I think what we are seeing right now on the right are the last death throws of a politicized hard core evangelism.

    Demographic shifts alone in the coming decades will force the right to become a bigger tent.

    The coming reckoning on the left between, how much our gov't can do for people, and how much $ we have to those things will be substantial.

    We probably wont start hearing about it till after the election (that I would put money on Obama winning at this point).

    But it is coming. And the left will have to face the fact running the economy and gov't in a fiscally pragmatic manner is just as important as helping the poor.

  2. #22
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    And everyone in the system, sooner rather than later, will be forced to face the fact that compromise is a political necessity.

  3. #23
    No moss growing on me Giggly's Avatar
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    I keep hearing a lot of people say that they are not voting.

  4. #24
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    Voter turnout in my city is 17%

    In the county, it is 24%

    In the state, it is 42%

    Nationwide, it was 63%

  5. #25
    Senior Member tinker683's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I'm scared that once the bunnies get power, it'll go to their heads, and they won't be able to resist the siren song of carrot exploitation.

    Yes, they look like harmless innocent bunnies right now; but that is how it always begins....
    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    FOOL. I TOLD YOU NOT TO TRUST THE BUNNEEEZ!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Fine. Here is how it begins.



    And soon you're stuck with this:



    Zillions of 'em.

    Scared yet? 500 lb sacks of fluffy bunny wrinkly cuteness, smothering this country in bunny love? I know I'm sick!
    Indeed. Also, how am I not the only one who has seen Night of the Lepus?

    "The man who is swimming against the stream knows the strength of it."
    ― Woodrow Wilson

  6. #26
    Senior Member UniqueMixture's Avatar
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    @discobisquit I see Mitt Romney as the poster boy for economic terrorism perpetuated against the poor worldwide that's why I won't vote for him. I see Obama as a shill who is too spineless to stand up to these forces, but at least passively opposes them. Mitt Romney on the other hand is rightfully hated by the tea party for selling out the bottom of the conservative base to international elites who want to make this country into their own Syria. I wonder when the rest of the conservatives will wake up and see that it's bigger than just the US and our national interests. If we keep playing that game our "free-market" capitalism will continue to lose to China's state capitalism and we'll continue to see the evaporation of middle classes in all countries. Ironically, by creating such instability in America we're setting ourselves up for what the conservatives fear most, namely the centralization of power in government hands as America copes with tensions in a multi-polar world in which it doesn't have the power to dictate global policy and contention from within its national borders.
    For all that we have done, as a civilization, as individuals, the universe is not stable, and nor is any single thing within it. Stars consume themselves, the universe itself rushes apart, and we ourselves are composed of matter in constant flux. Colonies of cells in temporary alliance, replicating and decaying and housed within, an incandescent cloud of electrical impulses. This is reality, this is self knowledge, and the perception of it will, of course, make you dizzy.

  7. #27
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    way too many posts along the lines of "Well, the moderates in my party are fuckin' awesome, but there aren't even any moderates in yours (because you're all insane)."

  8. #28
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UniqueMixture View Post
    @discobisquit I see Mitt Romney as the poster boy for economic terrorism perpetuated against the poor worldwide that's why I won't vote for him. I see Obama as a shill who is too spineless to stand up to these forces, but at least passively opposes them. Mitt Romney on the other hand is rightfully hated by the tea party for selling out the bottom of the conservative base to international elites who want to make this country into their own Syria. I wonder when the rest of the conservatives will wake up and see that it's bigger than just the US and our national interests. If we keep playing that game our "free-market" capitalism will continue to lose to China's state capitalism and we'll continue to see the evaporation of middle classes in all countries. Ironically, by creating such instability in America we're setting ourselves up for what the conservatives fear most, namely the centralization of power in government hands as America copes with tensions in a multi-polar world in which it doesn't have the power to dictate global policy and contention from within its national borders.
    Really strong post. I agree.
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
    C.S. Lewis

  9. #29
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    i don`t believe romney would be an improvement over obama. think ryan should dump him as well
    "I'm not in this world to live up to your expectations and you're not in this world to live up to mine. "
    -Bruce Lee

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by UniqueMixture View Post
    @discobisquit I see Mitt Romney as the poster boy for economic terrorism perpetuated against the poor worldwide that's why I won't vote for him. I see Obama as a shill who is too spineless to stand up to these forces, but at least passively opposes them. Mitt Romney on the other hand is rightfully hated by the tea party for selling out the bottom of the conservative base to international elites who want to make this country into their own Syria. I wonder when the rest of the conservatives will wake up and see that it's bigger than just the US and our national interests. If we keep playing that game our "free-market" capitalism will continue to lose to China's state capitalism and we'll continue to see the evaporation of middle classes in all countries. Ironically, by creating such instability in America we're setting ourselves up for what the conservatives fear most, namely the centralization of power in government hands as America copes with tensions in a multi-polar world in which it doesn't have the power to dictate global policy and contention from within its national borders.
    So you're telling me that we should try to emulate China economically?

    From The Telegraph:

    Global crisis moves East as China suffers rapid downturn

    China’s industrial output is contracting at the fastest pace since the depths of the global financial crisis, with knock-on effects spreading across the Far East.



    “It just keeps getting worse,” said Alistair Thornton and Xianfang Ren from IHS Global Insight. “The government has underestimated the pace of the slowdown and is behind the curve.”

    The HSBC/Markit manufacturing index for China fell to 47.6 in August, the lowest since the onset of Great Recession in late 2008. Inventories are rising. The index for new export orders fell to the lowest since March 2009. “Beijing must step up policy easing to stabilise growth,” said Hongbin Qu from HSBC.

    China’s official PMI manufacturing index – weighted to big companies – also fell through the contraction line of 50, though services are holding up better.

    Evidence of a hard landing over the summer is becoming clearer. Rail volumes fell 8.2pc in July from a year before. The Japanese group Komatsu said its exports of hydraulic excavators to China – a proxy gauge for Chinese construction – fell 48pc in August from a year before.

    The twin effect of China’s downturn and Europe’s double-dip recession has turned into a full-blown shock for much of Asia. Hong Kong and Singapore both contracted in the second quarter and are probably in technical recession.



    South Korea’s exports fell 6.2pc in August, with car sales down 18.2pc. India’s exports fell 14.8pc in July, an extra blow as it grapples with its own post-boom hangover. “The coming days ahead are tough,” said Indian commerce secretary S R Rao.

    Stephen Jen from SLJ Macro Patrners said we are starting to see Phase III of the global crisis as “the eye of the storm moves East”, with China and emerging markets succumbing at last to the effects of debt leverage.

    Mr Jen said markets have already discounted any likely trouble in Europe and America, but have yet to “price” the mounting risks in Asia correctly. “There seems to be a big gap between the prevalent view on China, and what is likely to happen: the sanguine consensus view that China can do no wrong will likely be proven to be incorrect,” he said.

    Jim O’Neill from Goldman Sachs said the Chinese government will “surely step in” if the calibrated soft landing slips control. The central bank has kept monetary policy tight to keep a lid on property prices and rein in rampant loan growth, up by almost 100pc of GDP in five years.

    The authorities cut the required reserve ratio for banks in May to 20pc – still very high by global standards – but have refused to ease further despite ever louder pleas for action from the markets. Governor Xiaochuan Zhou opened the door to monetary loosening last week, saying a change in the reserve ratio was “still possible”.

    China’s regions have unveiled vast infrastructure and stimulus projects over recent weeks with the blessing of the Politburo, but it is unclear how these can be financed. Beijing-based media group Caixin reports that Beijing, Shanghai and other cities already face a “budget crunch” as land-sale receipts fall sharply.

    Local governments have $1.7 trillion (£1.07 trillion) in debts through 6,000 arms-length vehicles, described by Cheng Siwei from Beijing’s International Finance Forum as China’s “sub-prime” crisis.

    The state-run banks can clearly crank up lending if told to do so, but Fitch Ratings says the law of diminishing returns has already set in, with each extra yuan of debt generating less than half a yuan in extra growth.

    Overdue loans at major banks jumped 27pc in the first half of the year. The steel industry alone has $400bn of debts.

    China will have to steer a delicate course, offering just enough stimulus to keep the show on the road without reverting to the dangerous excesses of the last five years.

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