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  1. #41
    Senior Member Priam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by booyalab View Post
    Not so.

    Basically any discussion of equality is incomplete without the discussion of equality of consequences. If people stopped forming gay relationships what would be the impact on the public at large 50 years down the road? What if people stopped forming straight relationships?
    People have been forming gay and straight relationships, regardless of the approbation or censure of their communities for millennia. If you want to see a dialogue from way back on the subject, check out Plato's Symposiums. There's a conversation describing love which is comprehensive of straight and gay relationships...

    You could argue that the fact that gay people are allowed to get married won't impinge on the ability of straight people to have babies, but you can't argue against the fact that the precedent alters the existing incentives so we're starting to reward people for making an emotional scene instead of motivating people to advance society in the most effective way possible. So in countries like Norway, where for many years marriage has been defined as an expression of love instead of a contract to foster an environment conducive to childrearing, you have many more cases of illegitimate parenting. Traditional marriage isn't meant to protect homophobic religious fundamentalist interests, it's meant to protect the interests of the future of society.
    The trend you mention is one that has been occurring in Western Europe for three decades or so, yet Norway (and most of Scandinavia) continually ranks high in both the prosperity and happiness of its citizens. Further, the trend has been occurring for longer than a cohesive gay rights movement, let alone gay marriage, has existed in most of these countries. Oddly enough, these are also some of the countries in the Western world that rank highest in communal thinking!

    We can argue about the impact of easy contraception and no-fault divorce upon the psyche of the family, and there I would make an entirely different case, but it's ultimately a very different set of circumstances.
    "The subject chooses to sit in shadow and search for wisdom by reflecting upon his trial. The problem is not that he is cold and wet, but that cold and wet seems problematic, so he embraces those hardships in order to best them."

  2. #42
    Senior Member Priam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf View Post
    booyalab has explained the only reason I could ever somewhat accept for why there are tax benefits for marriage, and it even explains the slight tax hit for people with equal mid-to-high incomes.

    Many of you are too SJ to understand my arguments, though, and cannot comprehend anything but your small-minded reality.

    The government and others make a lot of money on divorce, so it's also in their best interest to have a contract between the people involved.

    Priam posted nothing but emotional spin here.
    All you've done is:

    1) Regurgitated someone else's argument

    2) Toss out a broad-brush ad hominem and

    3) Attempt to dismiss my post, based on arguments I've heard used by opponents over the years, without once demanding a cite (which I'd be happy to provide), providing a new argument (as booylab sorta did and I replied) or showing any flaws in my logic.

    And you've got the chutzpah to be disdainful of my post?
    "The subject chooses to sit in shadow and search for wisdom by reflecting upon his trial. The problem is not that he is cold and wet, but that cold and wet seems problematic, so he embraces those hardships in order to best them."

  3. #43
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Priam View Post
    The trend you mention is one that has been occurring in Western Europe for three decades or so, yet Norway (and most of Scandinavia) continually ranks high in both the prosperity and happiness of its citizens. Further, the trend has been occurring for longer than a cohesive gay rights movement, let alone gay marriage, has existed in most of these countries. Oddly enough, these are also some of the countries in the Western world that rank highest in communal thinking!
    European Birth Rates Reach Historic Low In Part Because Of Recent Fall In Eastern Europe

    2.1 is generally considered to be the birth rate at which a population replaces itself. The US is pretty close to this. No European nation comes close. We'll be seeing the implications of this over the next few decades as Europe will lack the workers required to fund the social programs of its aging population.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  4. #44
    veteran attention whore Jeffster's Avatar
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    I don't think there's any reason to change the laws of marriage. People can already sign a contract to share property if they want to.

  5. #45
    Senior Member Priam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    European Birth Rates Reach Historic Low In Part Because Of Recent Fall In Eastern Europe

    2.1 is generally considered to be the birth rate at which a population replaces itself. The US is pretty close to this. No European nation comes close. We'll be seeing the implications of this over the next few decades as Europe will lack the workers required to fund the social programs of its aging population.
    No doubt! It'll be interesting to see how this shakes out with regards to assimilation and prosperity. If you're willing to spin this off into another thread, I'd love to see a discussion on the topic! I'll admit I let myself sidetrack when I typed that out, as it has only marginal bearing on a debate about gay rights.
    "The subject chooses to sit in shadow and search for wisdom by reflecting upon his trial. The problem is not that he is cold and wet, but that cold and wet seems problematic, so he embraces those hardships in order to best them."

  6. #46
    Senior Member Priam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    I don't think there's any reason to change the laws of marriage. People can already sign a contract to share property if they want to.
    You think that's the only right of marriage in the USA? Check it out!

    Please note that there are three pages on that site. The most important benefits (to my mind) included are:

    1) Automatic visitation rights - you are family and cannot be barred from seeing your spouse in the hospital.
    2) Automatic inheritor - you claim that people can share property, and that's true as far as it goes, but what if a person is incapacitated or dies? It defaults to next of kin or designated inheritor. What do you do when the family of your spouse automatically inherits half your house?
    3) Joint adoption
    4) Family leave to care for a sick spouse
    5) Immigration and residency

    You can partially achieve the first two through legal documents (power of attorney and well-written contracts), but they are disputable in court. All it takes is a family member who doesn't like you and BAM! you're locked into a huge wrangle that may keep you locked out of your partner's hospital room, medical decisions... even your own house.

    The third one is a state-by-state issue, but many states will only allow single-person adoption if you're not married. Again: what happens to the kid you helped raise if your spouse (the legal parent) dies?

    The last two are just plain unachievable. There's a much longer list, but I wanted to point these out.
    "The subject chooses to sit in shadow and search for wisdom by reflecting upon his trial. The problem is not that he is cold and wet, but that cold and wet seems problematic, so he embraces those hardships in order to best them."

  7. #47
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Priam View Post
    You think that's the only right of marriage in the USA? Check it out!

    Please note that there are three pages on that site. The most important benefits (to my mind) included are:

    1) Automatic visitation rights - you are family and cannot be barred from seeing your spouse in the hospital.
    2) Automatic inheritor - you claim that people can share property, and that's true as far as it goes, but what if a person is incapacitated or dies? It defaults to next of kin or designated inheritor. What do you do when the family of your spouse automatically inherits half your house?
    3) Joint adoption
    4) Family leave to care for a sick spouse
    5) Immigration and residency

    You can partially achieve the first two through legal documents (power of attorney and well-written contracts), but they are disputable in court. All it takes is a family member who doesn't like you and BAM! you're locked into a huge wrangle that may keep you locked out of your partner's hospital room, medical decisions... even your own house.

    The third one is a state-by-state issue, but many states will only allow single-person adoption if you're not married. Again: what happens to the kid you helped raise if your spouse (the legal parent) dies?

    The last two are just plain unachievable. There's a much longer list, but I wanted to point these out.
    Yup. Lots of stuff here. You cannot believe the nightmares that same-sex or even trans marriages go through because of things like this.

    (About ten years ago there was an awful case where a post-surgery transwoman who was obviously living as female and will be until she dies was married for years to a man who died... and the courts stripped her of all of her rights as the surviving spouse because the marriage was "invalid" due to the states not having provision to change her gender marker on the birth certificate. The law in this case was leveraged to violate what should have been a "common-sense" judgment. Permitting equal rights to same sex couples would have made this whole mistake void. And this sort of crap is NOT uncommon.)

    In any case, I don't think straight people truly get how badly same-sex couples can get screwed by the legal process. And since each state is different, because marriage is a state agreement and not a federal one, there's no consistency... and then you get into problems where a person goes from one state to another and the laws are different.


    btw, Booya -- what exactly is "illegitimate parenting?" That terminology really throws me for a loop. (I mean, who on earth would gladly take on the role of parent unless they really wanted it? Most "illegitimate" parents just cut and run -- that's what makes them "illegitimate.")
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  8. #48
    Guerilla Urbanist Brendan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by booyalab View Post
    So in countries like Norway, where for many years marriage has been defined as an expression of love instead of a contract to foster an environment conducive to childrearing, you have many more cases of illegitimate parenting.
    Wrong.

    Norway is the developed country with the highest rate of pre-marital sex.

    The United States is the developed country with the highest rate of pre-marital pregnancy.
    There is no such thing as separation from God.

  9. #49
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by booyalab View Post
    Not so.

    Basically any discussion of equality is incomplete without the discussion of equality of consequences. If people stopped forming gay relationships what would be the impact on the public at large 50 years down the road? What if people stopped forming straight relationships?
    You could argue that the fact that gay people are allowed to get married won't impinge on the ability of straight people to have babies, but you can't argue against the fact that the precedent alters the existing incentives so we're starting to reward people for making an emotional scene instead of motivating people to advance society in the most effective way possible. So in countries like Norway, where for many years marriage has been defined as an expression of love instead of a contract to foster an environment conducive to childrearing, you have many more cases of illegitimate parenting. Traditional marriage isn't meant to protect homophobic religious fundamentalist interests, it's meant to protect the interests of the future of society.
    Actually, many European nations are offering some big pretty financial incentives for childbearing. It's not working though. If this trend doesn't change Europe, as we know it, will slowly fade away as it's replaced by cultures where reproduction is more important. They'll be bred out of existence.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  10. #50
    veteran attention whore Jeffster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Priam View Post
    You think that's the only right of marriage in the USA?
    No, I didn't say that. My conclusion that I'm not in favor of changing the laws takes into account many of the other things you listed.

    1) Automatic visitation rights - you are family and cannot be barred from seeing your spouse in the hospital.
    This one I've never understood. Why would a hospital bar you from seeing someone?

    2) Automatic inheritor - you claim that people can share property, and that's true as far as it goes, but what if a person is incapacitated or dies? It defaults to next of kin or designated inheritor. What do you do when the family of your spouse automatically inherits half your house?
    That's what wills are for. Once again, you have an avenue without changing marriage laws.

    As for immigration, I think the laws need a complete overhaul. Marriage doesn't even mean you have smooth sailing in bringing a family member over to the US. I have a co-worker who had the process drag on for years.

    But basically, it comes down to completely different world views. I believe people have freedom to make choices in their lives, but those choices don't necessarily have to be codified by the government, if it's not something that's good for society as a whole. I personally don't want to live in a society where homosexuality is treated as just another trait to somebody like race or ethnic group, because I don't believe it is that. Maybe you do want to live in that environment. I think there's already enough immorality around for my son to be exposed to, we don't need to add any more by putting a big government stamp of approval on it.

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