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  1. #31
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brendan View Post
    The problem being?
    Polygamy leading to ostracizing of young males from the family and the subjugation of the women.

    And animals can't consent to sex when it comes to zoophilia.

    (Honestly I don't know why polygamy is wrong. If you hadn't noticed, I was pulling stuff out of the air when I made those comments just for the sake of arguing.)
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

  2. #32
    Senior Member ceecee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf View Post

    Gay marriage - Completely against it. Marriage is religious and should be defined by religious groups as they see fit.
    Oh that's bullshit. I was married in a non-denominational ceremony. It doesn't make me any less married because it didn't have a a sanctioned religion backing it.

    Most homosexuals are not religious and therefore have no way or reason to be married.
    <laughing> With the exception of two homosexual couples, every one I know (several) is religious, belong to and are very active in their churches.

    If there's serious call, I'm sure some religious group will step up and do it for them... The government should have freeform family unit designation. Civil unions. This extends to all life forms, so if Ms. Smith wants her little fluffy to be part of the family with all rights and privileges, there's nothing wrong with that.
    Why should they HAVE to be joined in a civil union if they don't wish to? The government should have freeform family unit designation? What the fuck does that mean? Why would anyone want the government to have a say of any kind over who they choose, how they choose and the way they decide be united. Outside of getting a marriage license, I assure you I did not invite the government to my wedding.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by ceecee View Post
    Oh that's bullshit. I was married in a non-denominational ceremony. It doesn't make me any less married because it didn't have a a sanctioned religion backing it.
    Yeah, I was married by a JP, I don't feel less married.

  4. #34
    homo-loving sonovagun anii's Avatar
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    Gay marriage should be legal.

    Anyone who is willing to adopt should be commended. Children need loving parents of any gender.
    There's reason to be afraid, and reason to open your heart. ~ Seal

    Refreshment for your ears: www.kexp.org

  5. #35
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    It's better than depressed marriage and adoption, so why not?
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  6. #36
    Senior Member Priam's Avatar
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    There are no true reasons that don't end up invoking religion, at which point the best game one is playing is a holding action.

    Anti-discrimination

    "Special rights"
    Deeply flawed. Everyone would be shocked, just shocked! if they and their wife were kicked out of a restaurant because the gay owner objected to the couple holding hands. It would be loudly touted as discrimination. It's a laughable, surreal example... which only shows how much we take that heterosexual right for granted. It does not, however, make it any less of a right.

    "A lifestyle choice shouldn't be protected by law. They can choose to stop."

    And a Christian can choose to convert. Millions do.

    That covers most of the arguments for the issue of anti-discrimination.

    Marriage

    "Marriage is a time-honored and tested tradition that has always been between a man and a woman"

    Actually, up until reasonably recently in the Western world, it was a contract between a man's family and a woman's. It remains that way in large stretches of the world. The concept of marriages where love was much more than a side benefit one hoped to see develop over time is a new, novel concept. We've changed the structure, motivations and societal beliefs about marriages many times over the year. Why not at least look at whether this dynamic institution might need to shift again?

    "Gay people have the same right I do: the right to marry someone of the opposite sex"

    It's purely a logic game with no basis in common sense or legal precedent laid down since Loving v. Virginia threw out miscegenation. We don't set out to marry someone of the opposite sex; we set out to marry the person we love on all levels. If that's not the case, as when a gay person tries to conform to heterosexual marriage, all that's caused is pain and recrimination. Is that what the sanctity of marriage is all about?

    "Gay marriage will destroy the institution"

    Actually there are stats showing that things like no-fault divorce and the sexual revolution have done quite a lot to spike the dissolution of marriages. Gay marriage, on the other hand, has done zilch to affect the rate of divorce/nuptials in the few countries and one state where it's legal. Unless we're talking about one SERIOUS time-delay here, this argument has no evidence.

    Adoption

    "Gay men are child molesters"

    The one study done that made this link, by a man called Paul Cameron, actually recorded as gay every single time he came across a case of same-sex child molestation. The simple truth is that pedophiles tend to molest those children to which they have easy access, without specific preference for gender, and will most often identify as straight when a survey is done. Child molestation has nothing to do with sexual orientation.

    "It'll turn the child gay"

    1) Gay kids are born to straight couples a lot. Obviously. Indeed, gay kids are born into families where there are no other gay people. It's not like you get the gay if you forget to use hand sanitizer after shaking Uncle Raymond's hand. For those with a serious scientific bent, long-term longitudinal studies have been done showing no connection between the adopted parent's orientation and the child's except that children of gay parents are more likely to experiment with same-sex attraction.

    2) My less logical, but more emotional, response remains "so what?" If they grow into good, happy and healthy adults, who cares who they fall in love with?

    "The child will get picked on"

    Speaking as a child who got picked on a lot, bullies don't require much of anything to make your life a living hell. Any name can be twisted, any remarkable bodily feature warped, any clothing style denigrated. The important thing is to have a healthy support network that gives children the ability to rebound from such taunting.

    "A child should grow up with male and female role models"

    Well... duh! But what does that say about divorced parents? Single parents? Are their children any less healthy? Do they not expose their offspring to friends and family who can be trusted as figures of authority? Such evidence as there is indicates that having supportive, diligent and present parental figures is far more important than any other factor.

    That's all I got, folks. I don't touch the religious arguments because they ultimately revolve around personal, immovable beliefs that only briefly attach to logical debate.
    Last edited by Priam; 06-07-2008 at 08:09 PM. Reason: cleaned up a repeating paragraph
    "The subject chooses to sit in shadow and search for wisdom by reflecting upon his trial. The problem is not that he is cold and wet, but that cold and wet seems problematic, so he embraces those hardships in order to best them."

  7. #37
    Senior Thread Terminator Aerithria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    And animals can't consent to sex when it comes to zoophilia.
    Heh, this argument never ceases to amuse me. A person who wants to have sex with animals will do so regardless of whether or not there's a marriage license involved. I do understand why it's not legal though.

    As for the topic at hand, gay marriage is legal where I am (Canada) and the country doesn't seem to be falling apart because of it. And I don't see how being gay suddenly makes you incapable of being a parent.

    This plus everything Priam just said makes up my opinion on the matter.

  8. #38
    Senior Member ceecee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aerithria View Post
    Heh, this argument never ceases to amuse me. A person who wants to have sex with animals will do so regardless of whether or not there's a marriage license involved. I do understand why it's not legal though.

    It's like me saying I want to marry my Sub Zero fridge. I mean...I do love the thing enough to hump it but come on.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Priam View Post
    There are no true reasons that don't end up invoking religion,
    Not so.

    Basically any discussion of equality is incomplete without the discussion of equality of consequences. If people stopped forming gay relationships what would be the impact on the public at large 50 years down the road? What if people stopped forming straight relationships?
    You could argue that the fact that gay people are allowed to get married won't impinge on the ability of straight people to have babies, but you can't argue against the fact that the precedent alters the existing incentives so we're starting to reward people for making an emotional scene instead of motivating people to advance society in the most effective way possible. So in countries like Norway, where for many years marriage has been defined as an expression of love instead of a contract to foster an environment conducive to childrearing, you have many more cases of illegitimate parenting. Traditional marriage isn't meant to protect homophobic religious fundamentalist interests, it's meant to protect the interests of the future of society.
    I don't wanna!

  10. #40
    only bites when provoked
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    booyalab has explained the only reason I could ever somewhat accept for why there are tax benefits for marriage, and it even explains the slight tax hit for people with equal mid-to-high incomes.

    Many of you are too SJ to understand my arguments, though, and cannot comprehend anything but your small-minded reality.

    The government and others make a lot of money on divorce, so it's also in their best interest to have a contract between the people involved.

    Priam posted nothing but emotional spin here.
    I 100%, N 88%, T 88%, J 75%

    Disclaimer: The above is my opinion and mine alone, it does not mean I cannot change my mind, nor does it guarantee that my comments are related to any deep-seated convictions. Take everything I say with a whole snowplow worth of salt and call me in the morning, if you can.

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