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  1. #191
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Dude, so is a license. You can't show a marriage license as proof of anything if you never use it to get married. You need the certificate to complete the circuit.
    And you can go to anyone licensed to perform marriages to get a certificate. You never have to step foot in a church.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  2. #192
    Senior Member ThatsWhatHeSaid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Actually it's the other way around. The license can be traded in for a certificate. The gov. has to OK the pending marriage and issue the license before the officiant can marry the couple and sign the certificate and send it back to the gov.
    Oops. Thanks.

  3. #193
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    And you can go to anyone licensed to perform marriages to get a certificate. You never have to step foot in a church.
    I don't remember disputing that. I was answering your claim that only a license has legal significance, and that a certificate has none.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  4. #194
    Senior Member ThatsWhatHeSaid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    I don't remember disputing that. I was answering your claim that only a license has legal significance, and that a certificate has none.
    No one ever disputed that, but that's how Lateralus argues. You back him into a corner, and then he makes it seem like he was right the whole time.

    No one ever said you MUST to go to a church. The issue was whether the church CAN, not ONLY CAN dispense a certificate/license.

  5. #195
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    I don't remember disputing that. I was answering your claim that only a license has legal significance, and that a certificate has none.
    Certificates used to have legal significance, before the state got involved in marriage business. And I'll concede that you can't get a marriage license without a certificate. However, those certificates are essentially relics of a bygone era. Almost anyone can go into their county courthouse and get licensed to perform marriages these days. The church has no special privilege, as Edahn was asserting with his original argument. For most churches, it's a particular pastor who has taken the time to get a marriage license, not the church itself.

    I think the only reason you even need a certificate, still, is because marriage ceremonies are a thriving industry.

    This is all really a semantic debate that's beside the point. Edahn's claim was that churches have these special privileges, and it's just not true. He just won't admit that he was wrong on that point. So we'll go round and round and round.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  6. #196
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    As far as I know you don't have to go out and get a separate license to marry people. Simply being a priest or minister of a recognized religious body is enough. I know people who have done that mail-order Universal Life Church thing, and they can marry without procuring a separate license, just by virtue of being "ordained" by the "church." So while it's true that pretty much anybody can do it, if you're not a judge or a magistrate, you DO have to at least say you're part of a church because in most states only clergy or magistrates can certify marriages. That is the government extending the right to perform an act of governmental authority to the clergy. IMO, it violates the separation of church & state. I would rather they each stuck to their own side of the equation--let governmental officials certify the legal marriage, and let religious officials bless the marriage and perform any religious ceremony.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  7. #197
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    More information on why this is a state problem, not a church problem:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/26/op...ll&oref=slogin

    The American colonies officially required marriages to be registered, but until the mid-19th century, state supreme courts routinely ruled that public cohabitation was sufficient evidence of a valid marriage. By the later part of that century, however, the United States began to nullify common-law marriages and exert more control over who was allowed to marry.

    By the 1920s, 38 states prohibited whites from marrying blacks, “mulattos,” Japanese, Chinese, Indians, “Mongolians,” “Malays” or Filipinos. Twelve states would not issue a marriage license if one partner was a drunk, an addict or a “mental defect.” Eighteen states set barriers to remarriage after divorce.

    In the mid-20th century, governments began to get out of the business of deciding which couples were “fit” to marry. Courts invalidated laws against interracial marriage, struck down other barriers and even extended marriage rights to prisoners.

    But governments began relying on marriage licenses for a new purpose: as a way of distributing resources to dependents. The Social Security Act provided survivors’ benefits with proof of marriage. Employers used marital status to determine whether they would provide health insurance or pension benefits to employees’ dependents. Courts and hospitals required a marriage license before granting couples the privilege of inheriting from each other or receiving medical information.
    There's all this animus directed at religion when the problem has been (as usual) the government sticking its nose where it doesn't belong.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  8. #198
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    I think it is technically both a state and a church problem since the church is by far the biggest advocate against same sex marriage.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

  9. #199
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    They don't "dispense" licenses, they fill out the paperwork and send it in to the state, which then processes it and sends the couple the certificate. The person officiating need to be registered with the government to fill out said paperwork, and anyone can get it regardless of their religious affiliation.
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    Disclaimer: The above is my opinion and mine alone, it does not mean I cannot change my mind, nor does it guarantee that my comments are related to any deep-seated convictions. Take everything I say with a whole snowplow worth of salt and call me in the morning, if you can.

  10. #200
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    You really can't say that across the board. It varies by state. In California there is a thing called "deputy-for-a-day" where anyone can be temporarily granted the power to perform a marriage, so a couple can have a friend perform their wedding. But in most states it's only clergy members and court/government officials.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

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