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  1. #161
    Guerilla Urbanist Brendan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Following the status quo? Your perspective is limited. Younger generations will be more receptive to your cause. It's simply a matter of time until your goal is reached.
    Who the hell are you to tell me that my perspective on this subject is limited? I'm aware that younger generations are more socially liberal than are older generations as a general rule. That's nothing groundbreaking. And it's not simply a matter of time. This will require hard work, and action, not just depending on time itself.
    There is no such thing as separation from God.

  2. #162
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brendan View Post
    You're absolutely right, booyalab. I can totally see how a white, republican, Christian midwesterner could identify with being discriminated against.
    Did you forget the part where she's a girl?
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  3. #163
    Guerilla Urbanist Brendan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    Did you forget the part where she's a girl?
    How am I supposed to afford any kind of courtesy and benefit of doubt to her beliefs, causes and situations when she won't afford any to mine?
    There is no such thing as separation from God.

  4. #164
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brendan View Post
    Clearly I'm aware that not all people are capable of live and let live, but thanks for the condescending attitude.

    And I know what your point was. It's incorrect on two fronts. No, I don't have to just deal with it, and quite frankly, I'm not opposed to civil unrest.
    Yes, you do have to deal with it. How you deal with it is your own choice.

    I'm sure you're not opposed to civil unrest as long as others are paying the price. Civil unrest always has a cost. Look at the disastrous consequences of the race riots of the 60s. Business moved out of those communities in droves. Many of those areas still haven't recovered over 40 years later.

    And for the love of God, has anyone stepped back to notice that gays are not the ones turning this into a big deal?
    Both sides are turning this into a big deal. If gays weren't a party to it, it wouldn't even be an issue. You'd just shrug your shoulders and go on to something else.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  5. #165
    Senior Member Eileen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    That could be the case, but I really doubt there will be any state where the issue gets enough popular support to actually outlaw gay marriage, that includes states like Texas. I think people are better off being patient. Real change comes with a change in public opinion, not through government force. Force only leads to unrest.
    Well, I disagree that people are better off being patient, because then they could be waiting forever for something that's just never going to come. I just don't think we should force religious groups to hold particular opinions and perform particular rites because it's flat-out unconstitutional. I don't want church in my government or government in my church. Churches will or won't change from the inside. There are LOTS of pro-gay marriage movements within the mainline churches. They will handle the church part. The government should handle the legal part. The way it should handle it is by extending the same rights to same-sex couples as it does to hetero couples.
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    "I can never be what I ought to be until you are what you ought to be. You can never be what you ought to be until I am what I ought to be. This is the interrelated structure of reality." -Martin Luther King, Jr.

  6. #166
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brendan View Post
    Who the hell are you to tell me that my perspective on this subject is limited? I'm aware that younger generations are more socially liberal than are older generations as a general rule. That's nothing groundbreaking. And it's not simply a matter of time. This will require hard work, and action, not just depending on time itself.
    Our educational system is extremely liberal. Because of that, alone, our society is becoming more liberal without you needing to lift a finger.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  7. #167
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eileen View Post
    Well, I disagree that people are better off being patient, because then they could be waiting forever for something that's just never going to come. I just don't think we should force religious groups to hold particular opinions and perform particular rites because it's flat-out unconstitutional. I don't want church in my government or government in my church. Churches will or won't change from the inside. There are LOTS of pro-gay marriage movements within the mainline churches. They will handle the church part. The government should handle the legal part. The way it should handle it is by extending the same rights to same-sex couples as it does to hetero couples.
    I'm fine with people doing whatever they deem necessary, as long as it doesn't lead to violence (which Brendan said he's fine with). I'm of the opinion that if a federal law sanctioning gay marriage was passed right now, there would be violence, mostly against gays. If I'm correct, the question is then, how much violence is this law worth?

    As time passes, the severity of that potential violence is diminished. So it's simply a matter of time before gays can get their state sanctioned marriage without violence.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  8. #168
    Senior Member ThatsWhatHeSaid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eileen View Post
    I'm with Lateralus here. His position is extremely simple and clear. It's just about separation of church and state. And I am quite sure that if you try to force the Southern Baptists and company to recognize and perform gay marriages, it will NEVER, EVER happen. The legality of marriage between consenting adults should not have anything to do with the beliefs of individuals or groups.

    The legal part of marriage needs to have NOTHING to do with church. All the church should be able to do is bless it and recognize it with a religious ceremony. The signing of uniting contracts needs to be done in a completely legal/governmental context.
    Like I said before, marriage isn't a wholly religious institution. It's commingled with the state by virtue of the fact that it accepts the benefits and protections offered by a state. If a church decides that it is going to open itself up to dispensing marriage licenses, then it should not be given free reign to decide who receives those benefits and who doesn't on the basis of race or sexual preference.

  9. #169
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsWhatHeSaid View Post
    Like I said before, marriage isn't a wholly religious institution. It's commingled with the state by virtue of the fact that it accepts the benefits and protections offered by a state. If a church decides that it is going to open itself up to dispensing marriage licenses, then it should not be given free reign to decide who receives those benefits and who doesn't on the basis of race or sexual preference.
    Marriage licenses are dispensed by the state, not by churches. Churches can dispense certificates, which are not the same as licenses.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  10. #170
    Senior Member ThatsWhatHeSaid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Marriage licenses are dispensed by the state, not by churches. Churches can dispense certificates, which are not the same as licenses.
    So?

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