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  1. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eileen View Post
    So, what exactly happens--legally--when people get married in a church? I'm not married, so I'm not exactly sure. Who signs the marriage license?
    You usually go down to a government office and get your government license first. That's the thing that provides legal recognition. Then within a day or two you get married in the church, the church gives you some kind of cute marriage certificate, and that church certificate becomes the official document providing you access to your new government rights.

    But the government license is the key thing. Without that, the church can marry you but technically can't issue an official certificate of the marriage. Or if they do, it would be just for show and not have any legal force. You may be married in the eyes of the church, but the marriage and the church's certificate would have no legal standing (no government recognition).

    That's my understanding of those things, anyway.

  2. #142
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    I don't recall seeing that particular comparison made previously, but yes that seems about right.

    And probably the battle has to be fought the same way - marches, grass roots efforts, PR campaigns, pressure on legislators, individual states recognizing gay marriage and putting pressure on the feds to do so as well, etc.
    And that is the way it is being fought. It will take time, but as Jennifer said, once people see that the world isn't falling apart, the nay sayers will lose influence and the whole issue will be a "bliip".

    And the irony for me is I come from the equality state, good ol' Wyoming, the first state to ever give women the right to vote. It will no doubt be among the last to recognize gay marriage.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
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  3. #143
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eileen View Post
    So, what exactly happens--legally--when people get married in a church? I'm not married, so I'm not exactly sure. Who signs the marriage license?
    This is how I remember it from our wedding and my sister's wedding where the minister asked us to be witnesses. The marriage license is issued by the gov. (we went to the county clerk I think, you can do it something like up to 60 days before the wedding). Then the marriage certificate is signed by the officiant, in our case the Episcopal priest who married us and in my sister's case the Unitarian-Universalist hippie freak who married her and her husband. The officiant could also be a justice of the peace--one of those married my brother and SIL, and my parents. I think judges can also marry people.

    My preference would be to separate legal and religious marriage as has been suggested by many already. You could have only the legal marriage which would be open to any couple, or only the religious marriage which would be decided by each religious body as they see fit--people are, of course, free to worship or not worship wherever they like, and religious bodies can be as exclusive or inclusive as they like. Or you could have both.
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  4. #144
    Senior Member Eileen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsWhatHeSaid View Post
    I'm frustrated by your poor reasoning skillz and arrogant, condescending attitude.
    I'm with Lateralus here. His position is extremely simple and clear. It's just about separation of church and state. And I am quite sure that if you try to force the Southern Baptists and company to recognize and perform gay marriages, it will NEVER, EVER happen. The legality of marriage between consenting adults should not have anything to do with the beliefs of individuals or groups.

    The legal part of marriage needs to have NOTHING to do with church. All the church should be able to do is bless it and recognize it with a religious ceremony. The signing of uniting contracts needs to be done in a completely legal/governmental context.
    INFJ

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  5. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Technically, yes.
    Realistically, no.

    The conservative churches won't permit it. That's the problem. We have discrimination accusations being thrown in both directions, right?

    I come from the church environment: Homosexual marriage is seen as the downfall of western Christian civilization (and I'm not exaggerating, that's how it's viewed in the official and personal conversation in that setting) and they'll fight to prevent the government from recognizing homosexual unions even on a legal level if they can. Any move in that direction is "in the Church's face."

    If the issue has become a jumbled mess of legality and morality, it's partly the Church's fault. People don't separate the two when they discuss the issue, realistically.
    The church provides a lot of the fire and brimstone and claims a special say in the issue by insisting that marriage is a religious ceremony.

    But non-churchgoing Joe Six-Pack is equally or even more to blame; he knows that plenty of marriages are done outside the church and that the modern marriage is mostly about legal rights rather than religion. Joe Six-Pack sees it as a slippery slope issue--diluting the meaning of marriage, legitimizing homosexuality, etc.

    As Kiddo suggested, the issue of the woman's vote is probably similar. The churches fought the issue on the grounds that the Bible says women should yield to the judgment of men. Joe Six-Pack worried about it as a slippery slope issue--diluting the meaning of the vote, legitimizing women as equal partners, etc.

  6. #146
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Technically, yes.
    Realistically, no.

    The conservative churches won't permit it. That's the problem. We have discrimination accusations being thrown in both directions, right?

    I come from the church environment: Homosexual marriage is seen as the downfall of western Christian civilization (and I'm not exaggerating, that's how it's viewed in the official and personal conversation in that setting) and they'll fight to prevent the government from recognizing homosexual unions even on a legal level if they can. Any move in that direction is "in the Church's face."

    If the issue has become a jumbled mess of legality and morality, it's partly the Church's fault. People don't separate the two when they discuss the issue, realistically.
    I disagree, completely. How many states recognize gay marriage right now? 2? Whatever that number is, it's certain to grow. Younger generations will be more receptive to changes in the law. While I personally have no problem with gay marriage, I think that forcing it on the entire populace right now will do more harm than good. It would escalate civil unrest just like the Civil Rights Act of 1964.

    There had been only 2 race riots in the nearly 2 decades since WWII. After passing the Civil Rights Act, there were 16 race riots over the next 4 years, and they continued well into the 1970s.

    Edit: I'm not saying we'd have massive rioting like we had in the 60s, just that we'd have an increase in violence over the present level.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  7. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eileen View Post
    The legal part of marriage needs to have NOTHING to do with church. All the church should be able to do is bless it and recognize it with a religious ceremony. The signing of uniting contracts needs to be done in a completely legal/governmental context.
    Precisely.

    And I can't see any nonreligious reason why that contract should not be extended to same sex couples and I think most reasonable Americans would agree.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
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  8. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    I disagree, completely. How many states recognize gay marriage right now? 2? Whatever that number is, it's certain to grow. Younger generations will be more receptive to changes in the law. While I personally have no problem with gay marriage, I think that forcing it on the entire populace right now will do more harm than good. It would escalate civil unrest just like the Civil Rights Act of 1964.
    Gosh, you mean I might be forced to marry a woman? I object! I'm not in favor of forcing gay marriage on the entire populace either. Fortunately, nobody's talking about that, just extending the right to all couples instead of just hetero ones.
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    Just to add something to all this:

    Seeing that 5 pages of discussion about gay rights mostly by people who have no personal stake in the matter whether for or against absolutely infuriates me.

    True, I realize that we all have a right to discuss it, people are going to discuss it regardless of how it makes me feel and that the majority of those arguing (at least here) are in agreement with me, blah blah.

    But still. My constitionally guarenteed right to the pursuit of happiness is under attack, and it's mostly out of my hands.
    There is no such thing as separation from God.

  10. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    I disagree, completely. How many states recognize gay marriage right now? 2? Whatever that number is, it's certain to grow. Younger generations will be more receptive to changes in the law. While I personally have no problem with gay marriage, I think that forcing it on the entire populace right now will do more harm than good. It would escalate civil unrest just like the Civil Rights Act of 1964.

    There had been only 2 race riots in the nearly 2 decades since WWII. After passing the Civil Rights Act, there were 16 race riots over the next 4 years, and they continued well into the 1970s.
    Slow and steady wins the race, but if the NeoCons and the religious right get their way then legislation that would outright outlaw same sex marriages will be passed and the result will be an equality movement turning into a civil rights movement.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

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