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  1. #131
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsWhatHeSaid View Post
    What exactly did you add? I guess you excluded illegal discrimination, but isn't illegal discrimination already forbidden?
    What I don't think you realize is that most of the discrimination you read about in the text books was government sanctioned. I'm sure you have heard of the Jim Crow laws since you have referenced them. You may remember that Rosa Parks was also arrested for her actions by staying on the bus. The laws that were passed that allowed for various state and local agencies to discriminate against individuals on the basis of race were justified by the Supreme Court upholding the policy of "separate but equal". In other words, discrimination on the basis of race was made possible through the actions of the federal government. Once that policy was overturned, there was no justification for the laws and they were overturned one by one.

    Unlike in that situation, there is no policy held by the federal government against homosexuals. ("Don't ask, Don't tell" might be close) Therefore, there is no legal justification for people to pass laws against homosexuals.

    The difference here is that same sex marriages are denied the same rights and benefits of heterosexual marriages simply because they are deemed as not deserving those rights and benefits. That would make gay rights, marriage, and adoption more akin to the women's suffrage movement. A movement for equal rights, rather than a crusade against government sanctioned discrimination.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

  2. #132
    Senior Member ThatsWhatHeSaid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    The government shouldn't be able to discriminate, but individuals and church organizations have every right to do so. That's why I really believe the government should get out of this issue entirely.
    How about a dentist who refuses to provide services or employ gay people? A doctor who refuses to inseminate a black woman? A private hospital that denies treatment to a Mexican man? None of these are governmental entities, and the first two are individuals. Same result? Discriminate away?

  3. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsWhatHeSaid View Post
    How about a dentist who refuses to provide services or employ gay people? A doctor who refuses to inseminate a black woman? A private hospital that denies treatment to a Mexican man? None of these are governmental entities, and the first two are individuals. Same result? Discriminate away?
    Yes, those people should be free to discriminate as long as they are not accepting money or services from the government. That is their right, just as it would be my right if I were a business owner to deny services to a homophobe, racist, or sexist.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
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  4. #134
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Just a footnote to the conversation at hand: I heard this on This American Life a few years back and it pretty much encapsulates what I think about the topic. (We'll see if it posts right-- stand by for technical difficulties.)

    Fanatical Apathy

    This gay marriage thing is tearing my wife and me apart. Now, because of activist judges in Massachusetts and overzealous officials in San Francisco, our union is hanging on by the thinnest of threads.

    Back in the simpler days of 2002, when we were planning our wedding, Jeanne and I used to coo fondly at each other about the joys that lay ahead. It wasn’t that we were unsupportive of our gay friends, no. We were just looking forward to the government’s validation of our relationship’s specialness - a license that affirmed that the two of us had made a unique and personal eternal vow to each other. Something uniquer and specialer than any of our homosexual acquaintances could ever even hope for.

    We’re all for the separation of church and state, naturally, but if the government doesn’t define marriage as the sacred union between a man and a woman, who will? Are Jeanne and I expected to treasure our union solely on the basis of our deep love, personal beliefs, public vows, and the government’s blessing? Sorry, Judge Pinkypants, but that’s just not good enough. Not for us. We need to know that we’ve got something that’s only available to 90% of the population, the select and upstanding few.

    Sure, some of us are criminals. Murderers, even. Some of us have committed rape, beaten children, tattooed swastikas on our bodies, abused animals, broken into houses, bilked the government out of millions of tax dollars, lied under oath, cheated on previous spouses, dishonored our fathers and mothers, failed to keep the Sabbath holy, mowed down pedestrians in our SUV’s while intoxicated, coveted our neighbors’ stuff, gotten ourselves put on death row, sold military secrets to the Chinese, urinated in public places, beaten up people who looked or sounded different than us, and sold drugs in schoolyards.

    But we’re straight, and that means we can get married. And that’s special. Or, at least it was. Jeanne and I could look around at other married couples - at least the ones that aren’t currently dealing with serial infidelity, divorce, spousal abuse, or bigamy - and think to ourselves, “Yes, that’s what we’re striving for. That kind of sanctity.”

    Are some gay people serious about their commitment to each other? Sure, of course, that’s not the point. Let me give you an example. Jeanne and I know this couple, these two men. They’ve been together for years and years, longer than we have. They live on a farm in Pennsylvania and treasure their time together. They’re loved by their community, have saved lives as members of the local fire department and have opened their home to youth groups from the city. They’ve built a life together based on love and trust. BUT - and here’s my point - they’re gay. They’re both men. And if they’re allowed to marry someday, where does that leave us, my wife and me? See what I’m saying? It’d cheapen everything we have.

    And that’s not a knock on gay people. No no no. America loves its gays. Look at the TV, with all those funny gay people on “Will and Grace,” and “Queer as Folk,” and “Queer Eye for the Straight Guy.” They’re funny! Funny, colorful people - they’re nature’s clowns, really. Like penguins.

    And we don�t allow penguins to marry, do we? No, these are dark times in my household. My wife and I look at each other with haunted, suspicious eyes, feeling like we’ve bought a whole bunch of shares in a stock that is about to be devalued. Suddenly, the eternal, personal vows that we swore to each other will mean very little. We’ll basically become roommates who happen to wear matching rings, while meanwhile out our window we’ll see gays and penguins feeding each other wedding cake willy-nilly on our very own street corner.

    That�s why we need a Constitutional amendment that will protect marriage for straight people. Until we have the right to enter that sacred union, violate it, exit it, and enter it again with somebody else, again and again, regardless of what crimes we commit, until we�re too old and feeble to mouth the words, “I do,” - unless we have that right and gay people don’t, then there is truly nothing sacred in the United States of America.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  5. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsWhatHeSaid View Post
    How about a dentist who refuses to provide services or employ gay people? A doctor who refuses to inseminate a black woman? A private hospital that denies treatment to a Mexican man? None of these are governmental entities, and the first two are individuals. Same result? Discriminate away?
    "Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) cover all private employers, state and local governments, and education institutions that employ 15 or more individuals...."

    Employers And Other Entities Covered By EEO Laws

    It would be perfectly legal for the dentist and doctor to discriminate. But it would also be perfectly legal for gays and blacks to picket their office and ruin their practice. *shrugs*

  6. #136
    Senior Member Eileen's Avatar
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    So, what exactly happens--legally--when people get married in a church? I'm not married, so I'm not exactly sure. Who signs the marriage license?
    INFJ

    "I can never be what I ought to be until you are what you ought to be. You can never be what you ought to be until I am what I ought to be. This is the interrelated structure of reality." -Martin Luther King, Jr.

  7. #137
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsWhatHeSaid View Post
    The issue is whether a church should have the right to discrimin -- fuck it. I don't have the energy to sort through all this mess you call "reasoning." This debate isn't fun, it's just frustrating, because you keep losing focus and mixing arguments together. Meh.
    I've been abundantly clear with my stance that a church should have the right to discriminate. I've stated my reasons. You disagree and can't come up with a good counter-argument. That's why you're frustrated.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  8. #138
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    Nice Ivy.

    The sad part about that though is the whole "marriage isn't all that sacred and awesome" argument is that it's hijacked by the fundies who argue "why would gays even want to be married?" and "we need better marriage laws, not looser ones." Marriage is an extraordinary double standard. In fact, it could almost be considered a triple standard because of how some fundies embrace it and are "plagued" by it at the same time.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

  9. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    The difference here is that same sex marriages are denied the same rights and benefits of heterosexual marriages simply because they are deemed as not deserving those rights and benefits. That would make gay rights, marriage, and adoption more akin to the women's suffrage movement. A movement for equal rights, rather than a crusade against government sanctioned discrimination.
    I don't recall seeing that particular comparison made previously, but yes that seems about right.

    And probably the battle has to be fought the same way - marches, grass roots efforts, PR campaigns, pressure on legislators, individual states recognizing gay marriage and putting pressure on the feds to do so as well, etc.

  10. #140
    Senior Member ThatsWhatHeSaid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    I've been abundantly clear with my stance that a church should have the right to discriminate. I've stated my reasons. You disagree and can't come up with a good counter-argument. That's why you're frustrated.
    I'm frustrated by your poor reasoning skillz and arrogant, condescending attitude.

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