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  1. #121
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    I'd actually prefer this to sanctioning gay marriage, but we all know this will never happen.
    Exactly, which is why I wish more liberal minded people sanctioned legal gay marriage rights as opposed to denying same sex couples the same rights as heterosexual couples on the premise that nobody should have "special legal benefits and rights" in marriage. To me, it seems like a way to passively accept legal discrimination of sexual orientation.
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  2. #122
    Senior Member ThatsWhatHeSaid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    No, the question is should we forbid legal discrimination of sexual orientation.
    What exactly did you add? I guess you excluded illegal discrimination, but isn't illegal discrimination already forbidden?

  3. #123
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsWhatHeSaid View Post
    Hey, that's really great. Maybe we should also deny blacks the right to vote while we're at it. And women. Lateralus, I think you seriously need to study up on some legal and social history and start thinking about the decisions that have been made for the maturity of our civilization.
    If some yokel church refuses to perform an interracial marriage, the couple can find another church that will do it. Women and blacks couldn't exactly find another government to vote in. I don't think these are parallel.
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  4. #124
    Senior Member ThatsWhatHeSaid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    If some yokel church refuses to perform an interracial marriage, the couple can find another church that will do it. Women and blacks couldn't exactly find another government to vote in. I don't think these are parallel.
    The voting comment was just thrown in there for effect.

  5. #125
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsWhatHeSaid View Post
    Hey, that's really great. Maybe we should also deny blacks the right to vote while we're at it. And women. Lateralus, I think you seriously need to study up on some legal and social history and start thinking about the decisions that have been made for the maturity of our civilization.
    You're not making any sense.

    Jesus F'ing Christ. They're benefits exclusive to marriage. Can you keep your ideas straight?
    Right, and the problem isn't religious recognition, it's state recognition. You still can't seem to understand that important point. As FineLine pointed out, there are already churches that will perform gay marriage ceremonies, but the state fails to recognize them.

    What I said isn't as general as what you said. I am saying that a religious institution that is tied into the state by virtue of the benefits and protections it receives should not be given free reign to do whatever it wants in discriminating on the basis of race of sexual orientation.
    You're just plain wrong here. The CHURCH has tax exemption. That's it. All those other 'benefits' you listed are not exclusive to the church. Married atheist couples also receive those benefits. Those benefits are exclusive to married couples, which is a STATE problem, not a CHURCH problem.

    What you propose is prescription for violence.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  6. #126
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    If some yokel church refuses to perform an interracial marriage, the couple can find another church that will do it. Women and blacks couldn't exactly find another government to vote in. I don't think these are parallel.
    Right, or they could go to the county courthouse and get a marriage license because the state recognizes interracial marriages.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  7. #127
    Senior Member Gen's Avatar
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    No. You don't need to be married in a church. A religious ceremony is different from a legal ceremony. You can have a religious ceremony that doubles as a legal ceremony and the state acknowledges it, or you can have a legal ceremony only.

    There is no reason to force a church to sanction two people that they don't believe God will approve of. That's their personal belief. Two people can still get married by a justice of the peace.

    Legalized gay marriage should have nothing to do with religion.

  8. #128
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsWhatHeSaid View Post
    But that's the whole question, isn't it? Should we forbid discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation or not? It's that exact reasoning that led the California Supreme Court to legalize gay marriage.
    The government shouldn't be able to discriminate, but individuals and church organizations have every right to do so. That's why I really believe the government should get out of this issue entirely.
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  9. #129
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Those are not benefits exclusive to religion. You can easily make gay marriages legal without shoving it in the face of Southern Baptists.
    Technically, yes.
    Realistically, no.

    The conservative churches won't permit it. That's the problem. We have discrimination accusations being thrown in both directions, right?

    I come from the church environment: Homosexual marriage is seen as the downfall of western Christian civilization (and I'm not exaggerating, that's how it's viewed in the official and personal conversation in that setting) and they'll fight to prevent the government from recognizing homosexual unions even on a legal level if they can. Any move in that direction is "in the Church's face."

    If the issue has become a jumbled mess of legality and morality, it's partly the Church's fault. People don't separate the two when they discuss the issue, realistically.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  10. #130
    Senior Member ThatsWhatHeSaid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    You're not making any sense.
    *groan*

    Right, and the problem isn't religious recognition, it's state recognition. You still can't seem to understand that important point. As FineLine pointed out, there are already churches that will perform gay marriage ceremonies, but the state fails to recognize them.
    The issue is whether a church should have the right to discrimin -- fuck it. I don't have the energy to sort through all this mess you call "reasoning." This debate isn't fun, it's just frustrating, because you keep losing focus and mixing arguments together. Meh.

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