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  1. #31
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xisnotx View Post
    If it is just a political position then expect opposition. Ahmadinejad is just the dissenting voice. It's to be expected. He's not "evil", just "political".

    Talk is cheap. I've been hearing the same stuff for the last 15 years...

    In this case, though, cheap is good. No one wants anything more than what he's doing...empty posturing. He's on his way out, right? He failed. lol. Who cares? Let him make his little speeches. He'll fall into obscurity. Israel, I'd say, should be more concerned about the future.
    Firstly, Ahmadinejad doesn't distinguish between Israeli doves and hawks; to him all Jews are the problem. And if he were to attack a Israeli city he wouldn't be distinguishing between religion or ethnicity either - 1/5th of the population of Israel is Arab and the majority of them are Muslim. It's not about politics, it's about anti-semitism and ignorance.

    Unfortunately it's not that easy just to ignore it. The Israelis feel they can't take the chance that he is just talking BS. Recent experience alone tells them to take this stuff seriously. It's a different thing altogether to live in a country that is under genuine threat of attack at any time. In fact every day there are rockets hitting Israeli soil. When I was there, about 1 or 2 people a fortnight were killed by qassam rocket attacks - and the only reason there weren't more was due to good warning systems, a large number of bunkers and medical expertise in treating mangled wounds.

    I don't exactly want them to use a missile strike Iran (I think that is a bad idea) but I understand their concern and fear.
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  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Firstly, Ahmadinejad doesn't distinguish between Israeli doves and hawks; to him all Jews are the problem. And if he were to attack a Israeli city he wouldn't be distinguishing between religion or ethnicity either - 1/5th of the population of Israel is Arab and the majority of them are Muslim. It's not about politics, it's about anti-semitism and ignorance.

    Unfortunately it's not that easy just to ignore it. The Israelis feel they can't take the chance that he is just talking BS. Recent experience alone tells them to take this stuff seriously. It's a different thing altogether to live in a country that is under genuine threat of attack at any time. In fact every day there are rockets hitting Israeli soil. When I was there, about 1 or 2 people a fortnight were killed by qassam rocket attacks - and the only reason there weren't more was due to good warning systems, a large number of bunkers and medical expertise in treating mangled wounds.

    I don't exactly want them to use a missile strike Iran (I think that is a bad idea) but I understand their concern and fear.
    There is anti semitism and anti Isreal-ism. I'm sympathetic towards anti-Israel sentiments. Why?
    Because Israel's existence is either predicated on an argument from god, which I think is invalid (that is, people can't impose on others what they think the truth of god is) or it's political in which case the creation of Israel came with some very real political realities that lead to conclusions that are unhelpful to humanity.

    It's not my fight, so I don't care.

    But, I see no reason why Israel should exist in the place it does today, and I do see reasons why they shouldn't exist in the space they exist in today. Mostly pragmatic, in the sense that it's just a problem, the easiest solution being Israel not ever having existed as it does today.

    But, I'm not a statist, either, so I don't see why any state should exist in the space they do today...and I recognize that the only reason they do is because people fought and died for that.

    And I also recognize that Israel not existing now is impossible. It's too late...but the facilitators were in the wrong.

    Ahmadinejad meanwhile is fighting for his own state. But that's what states do, so I can'f knock him for that.
    What did Israel expect?

    Another way of looking at it, I suppose.

    Israel should argue from the position of 'We were wrong, that is, the people before us were wrong, but moving out at this point is impossible as we have nowhere to go, so just let it go, and perhaps we can move on?'

    An admission of guilt would probably pacify the concerned parties as it puts the blame on people they don't like anyway.

    Instead it opts for 'fuck you, look at my weapons'...which pisses everyone else off.
    Except America of course, simply because America's like 'yeah, and we gave it to them. Imagine what else we have.."

    Admittedly, though, it's been years since I've thought about it...

  3. #33
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xisnotx View Post
    There is anti semitism and anti Isreal-ism.
    Absolutely. I only wish to urge caution because sometimes the two are inextricably linked. Few countries in the world are criticised more than Israel. It is often criticised even more that nations have that have done far, far worse (not that this excuses the Israelis). Sometimes it can seem like the Israelis are judged far more harshly and this raises suspicion about the underlying motives.

    I'm sympathetic towards anti-Israel sentiments. Why?
    Because Israel's existence is either predicated on an argument from god, which I think is invalid (that is, people can't impose on others what they think the truth of god is) or it's political in which case the creation of Israel came with some very real political realities that lead to conclusions that are unhelpful to humanity.

    It's not my fight, so I don't care.

    But, I see no reason why Israel should exist in the place it does today, and I do see reasons why they shouldn't exist in the space they exist in today. Mostly pragmatic, in the sense that it's just a problem, the easiest solution being Israel not ever having existed as it does today.

    But, I'm not a statist, either, so I don't see why any state should exist in the space they do today...and I recognize that the only reason they do is because people fought and died for that.

    And I also recognize that Israel not existing now is impossible. It's too late...but the facilitators were in the wrong.

    Ahmadinejad meanwhile is fighting for his own state. But that's what states do, so I can'f knock him for that.
    What did Israel expect?

    Another way of looking at it, I suppose.
    Fair enough. My only point is that continuing to beat the dead horse (and boy, do people beat this dead horse) and stir up hatred will only make things worse. Healing is the way forward but what Ahmadinejad is doing is creating more obstacles for that. He is opening up wounds to win brownie points with extremists, not demanding improvements to the situation as it stands. Besides, he refuses to even accept the actualities, and this makes his argument nothing but pointless ranting and hatred.

    Many people are angry at things the US have committed on foreign soil over 60 years ago, and they deserve criticism for it. But a head of state using a public platform like the UN General Assembly to criticise them as though it happened yesterday and using it as a reason to increase tensions between nations, would be just plain ludicrous. This is my problem with what he's doing - and the only reason for it is prejudice.

    Israel should argue from the position of 'We were wrong, that is, the people before us were wrong, but moving out at this point is impossible as we have nowhere to go, so just let it go, and perhaps we can move on?'

    An admission of guilt would probably pacify the concerned parties as it puts the blame on people they don't like anyway.

    Instead it opts for 'fuck you, look at my weapons'...which pisses everyone else off.
    Except America of course, simply because America's like 'yeah, and we gave it to them. Imagine what else we have.."

    Admittedly, though, it's been years since I've thought about it...
    Oh there are certainly things Israel should apologise for but they are still approaching things from a mindset of wartime. And during wartime it's all about looking tough enough to dissuade your enemies from attacking you.

    Also some of the times where the Israeli government backed down or relaxed over certain issues, things went horribly wrong - and these events are still present in the minds of the Israeli public. This makes for a staunch, unyielding approach to foreign policy and little desire to publicly make concessions (even if they do in private). I personally don't agree with this sort of thinking but I understand it.

    Perhaps admission of guilt would pacify things, but the Israelis don't want to run the risk of making things worse.
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  4. #34
    Whisky Old & Women Young Speed Gavroche's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Not strictly speaking. I take a lot of interest in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and having read a lot about it (and having lived/travelled in both places), I have learned how messy and complicated it is. Because of this I don't entirely take a black and white approach with the issues or choose one 'side' or the other. I acknowledge there are a number of problems with Zionism.

    But the fact is, Jews are now in Israel and have been for several generations. This can't be undone or changed, and it is not justifiable to drive them out. Anyone who persists in thinking that this is possible is either deluded or sick enough to genuinely consider attempting it. The only way forward is a two state solution. Countries like Iran, stand in the way of that, with their inflammatory rhetoric and their continued financing of Hamas. Of course, the Iranian government doesn't actually give a flying fuck about the Palestinians. They just want a convenient distraction for their people so they don't realise how oppressed they are.
    This pretty much sums up European left-wing-ish views. If you don't think Israel should be wiped off the map - and even better, all Jews - you're a zionist.

    Classical zionist argumentation.
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  5. #35
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Gavroche View Post
    Classical zionist argumentation.
    a) Do you know what Zionism is?

    b) What is your suggestion for resolving this ongoing conflict?
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  6. #36
    Whisky Old & Women Young Speed Gavroche's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    a) Do you know what Zionism is?
    Someone who support the existence of an israelian state.

    b) What is your suggestion for resolving this ongoing conflict?
    Justice.
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  7. #37
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Gavroche View Post

    Justice.
    Meaning?
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  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    ...
    We don't disagree then, other than the value you place on Ahmadinejad's influence. Me, not much. You, a lot.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I dont agree with this.
    Australia held the first Presidency of the United Nations Security Council in 1946. And the first reason the United Nations was formed after WW II was to defend members against external aggression.

    And in the light of recent genocide of European Jews, the Universal Declaratation of Human Rights was signed by the members.

    And relatively recently the Universal Declaration of Human Rights has been repudiated by the OIC (Organisation of Islamic Cooperation) in order to practise discrimination within Islamic societies and to carry out a second genocide of Israeli Jews.

  10. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Australia held the first Presidency of the United Nations Security Council in 1946. And the first reason the United Nations was formed after WW II was to defend members against external aggression.

    And in the light of recent genocide of European Jews, the Universal Declaratation of Human Rights was signed by the members.

    And relatively recently the Universal Declaration of Human Rights has been repudiated by the OIC (Organisation of Islamic Cooperation) in order to practise discrimination within Islamic societies and to carry out a second genocide of Israeli Jews.
    Also by the US to avoid the incrimination of serving US soldiers or risk their trial in a court other than that of the US.

    Also they dont like some of the implications on childrens rights.

    Although tell me its all really about the muslims, or maybe the catholics, again.

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