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View Poll Results: Did Obamacare Slow the Recovery?

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  • Yes

    4 26.67%
  • It's likely (>50% chance)

    2 13.33%
  • It's unlikely (<50% chance)

    2 13.33%
  • No

    7 46.67%
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Results 41 to 50 of 78

  1. #41
    Freaking Ratchet Rail Tracer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Politics and economics are completely intertwined.
    There is also positive liberty, equality, welfare, and security that you aren't looking.

    The only thing you are paying attention to is efficiency and negative liberty, and that is hardly the only thing you should be looking at.

  2. #42
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rail Tracer View Post
    There is also positive liberty, equality, welfare, and security that you aren't looking.

    The only thing you are paying attention to is efficiency, and that is hardly the only thing you should be looking at.
    With so narrow a grasp of the concepts at hand, can you truly blame him?

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    Well now you're just being silly. I do understand economics. You, on the other hand, do not.

    What gives you the impression that I do not understand economics?
    The fact that in ten posts in this thread, you still haven't dealt with the argument in the op once.

    Anyway, as I realized shortly before you took off some months ago, you really are little more than a troll.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rail Tracer View Post
    There is also positive liberty, equality, welfare, and security that you aren't looking.

    The only thing you are paying attention to is efficiency and negative liberty, and that is hardly the only thing you should be looking at.
    That's quite an assumption you've come to there.

    Would you mind explaining how it is you arrived at it?

  4. #44
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    The fact that in ten posts in this thread, you still haven't dealt with the argument in the op once.

    Anyway, as I realized shortly before you took off some months ago, you really are little more than a troll.
    I've already debunked your argument twice. Go back and re-read my posts. I'm no troll, I just recognize errors and point them out. I will not apologize for describing the flaws in your argument.

  5. #45
    Freaking Ratchet Rail Tracer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    With so narrow a grasp of the concepts at hand, can you truly blame him?
    As much as being called an INFJ for being more socially aware than economically savvy? And thus, unaware of reality?

    Even though I talk about social policies that relate heavily on the economy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    That's quite an assumption you've come to there.

    Would you mind explaining how it is you arrived at it?
    I would be willing to re-quote 10+ posts in this thread alone, but I decided against that because I wouldn't want to notify everyone in one single coherent post. especially having to re-quote so many of @Beargryllz and your posts.

    But you can start by reading the first page.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    I've already debunked your argument twice. Go back and re-read my posts. I'm no troll, I just recognize errors and point them out. I will not apologize for describing the flaws in your argument.
    You haven't debunked or pointed to flaws in shit.

    You haven't even dealt with the argument in the op.

    In fact, the only people in this entire thread who have are ygolo and FDG.

    All you are is a troll, with no basic understanding of economics whatsoever.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rail Tracer View Post
    I would be willing to re-quote 10+ posts in this thread alone, but I decided against that because I wouldn't want to notify everyone in one single coherent post. especially having to re-quote so many of @Beargryllz and your posts.

    But you can start by reading the first page.
    How convenient.

    The assumptions you made were flawed.

    I understand why you would want to make them (in order to make a straw man out of your opposition), but they are flawed.

    I really do challenge you to prove the assumptions you have made based on anything I have said.

  7. #47
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    You haven't debunked or pointed to flaws in shit.

    You haven't even once dealt with the argument in the op.

    All you are is a troll, with no basic understanding of economics.
    I wonder how many times you will repeat this before you believe it

    Do you already believe it? Or are you just saying it?

    I can understand the need for this type of defense mechanism.

    In any case, the implementation of Obamacare is suboptimal next to superior methods of healthcare delivery (single payer, universal coverage, etc.), but is hardly a culprit in the slow economic recovery. It is quite clear that economic conditions are significantly better today than they were before this legislation passed. The main problem with Obamacare is the dependency on an employer. Worse yet, many of the largest employers are exempt from the stipulations, so I can see why you might think that Obamacare makes for a slow recovery. When you have major employers like McDonalds not providing basic health care like the other employers do, you can expect a slower recovery. It has already been mentioned in this thread that economics and politics are intertwined, so such concessions are an unfortunate reality for millions of vulnerable American citizens.

  8. #48
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rail Tracer View Post
    There is also positive liberty, equality, welfare, and security that you aren't looking.

    The only thing you are paying attention to is efficiency and negative liberty, and that is hardly the only thing you should be looking at.
    Not if you're a wingnut.

  9. #49
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    The capabilities of an ill or well individual can certainly be quantified. Sick days aren't just a loss in wages, they're a loss in productivity. Health promotion is crucially important for the economy, especially one as vulnerable as ours.
    Interesting statistics on sick days below. 40% of companies have paid time off, which means that days people are sick is irrelevant unless it involves someone going on disability. In 2002, 71% of companies had traditional sick days and that's down to 54% now.

    http://www.worldatwork.org/waw/adimLink?id=38913

    Also, I think people for the most part are taking sick days (when they are actually sick that is) is because they or a child has the cold or flu and I don't think Obamacare is going to do that much to reduce that.

    Please provide feedback on my Nohari and Johari Window by clicking here: Nohari/Johari

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  10. #50
    Freaking Ratchet Rail Tracer's Avatar
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    Continue. Just made it somewhat easier for you, but really annoying for other people to see notifications.

    Do I have to bold every single sentence also?

    A BIG sorry to everyone I quoted or quoted more than once.


    I just quoted what I can easily find. For the others harder ones to notice, you can look for yourself, because I can't hold your hand in looking at these things.

    Along with my original qoutes... these.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    You can't have an economy without a healthy workforce

    DJI in 2009 was 6-7k

    PPACA passes in 2010

    DJI today is 13.5k

    http://www.google.com/finance?client=ob&q=INDEXDJXJI

    Obamacare is LITERALLY like steroids for the economy. To say companies are worse off now is just dishonest, but I exist to sow truth and justice. I like what I do.

    Checkmate, Zarathustra
    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Recovery needs money to circulate in order to happen.
    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Regardless, I doubt Obamacare was introduced as a measure to speed up the economy, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    One more thought: with "good" healthcare, the average marginal productivity of the general population should be larger. Thus, profit-maximizing businesses might be willing to incur in additional costs; the transition might be classified as pareto-optimal if/when the business incur in additional costs equal to the additional marginal productivity, while the population enjoys a higher level of healthcare. On the other hand, if businesses have to pay more than the increased marginal productivity, while citizens enjoy higher levels of healthcare, then we have a social conflict...
    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    The capabilities of an ill or well individual can certainly be quantified. Sick days aren't just a loss in wages, they're a loss in productivity. Health promotion is crucially important for the economy, especially one as vulnerable as ours.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    America's the only place in the world that doesnt believe people should have a social floor, not even the Russians or Chinese are as wicked as that and they are both real shady regimes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    We've allowed far too many sociopaths to permeate our society and especially our leadership

    http://www.eurweb.com/2012/09/romney...for-univision/

    This is what we are working with here
    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    You're clearly uneducated on the matter. People with health insurance are healthier. You can try to dispute this if you really want to, but I would not recommend it. The cost of providing health coverage is irrelevant, because health coverage is something that every single person in the country benefits from. Nobody on earth would be worse off with health coverage. There is no society on earth that would benefit from having more sick people.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    You don't understand shit about economics.

    Which is why your argument is nothing more than these idiotic platitudes, and you didn't deal with the original argument in the first place.
    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    How is it good for the economy to have 50 million people with no access to health care? Can you name even one benefit to this? Is health care as a commodity beneficial in any way?

    It isn't. You have no argument.

    What we see with Obamacare is a greater number of individuals with access to health care, a higher demand in the health care industry for services, equipment, and personnel, and a corresponding jump in the economic performance of the entire nation. Remember, health care is about 18% of the GDP, and it is increasing every day.
    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    I think you are the one that does not understand economics. You have yet to put forth any kind of argument. You're good at making hyperlinks, I'll give you that. You just seem completely incapable of making your own point, which leads me to believe that you know nothing on these matters. I won't even applaud your efforts, I know you can do better than this.
    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    Your argument is that the economy is slowed by Obamacare

    I have proven, beyond what I consider a reasonable measure, that this is utterly false. Your understanding of economics and health care in general is terrible. You just do not understand how an economy works. I think that you have the potential to grasp the issue, but you really need to take a look at what you are saying. You have got to acknowledge your shortcomings if you want to make any significant knowledge gains. You have this fundamentally flawed approach when you look at the issue, and this is hampering you.
    Quote Originally Posted by gasoline View Post
    we are going to start seeing people like myself going into health care field, and stimulate the economy with their purchases, this in turn will create more jobs. right now im getting a sauna installed in my house that i bought.

    what obamacare done, is created jobs and its going to get better.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    When this is the kind of nonsense that passes for economic analysis, it's understandable why this country is in the place it's in.



    Once again, nothing more than populist tripe from someone who doesn't know shit about economics.

    And congratulations, this one didn't even relate to the op.



    What I understand are all the parts that make it untrue.

    And you still haven't dealt with the argument in the op, troll.

    Of course, it's becoming more-and-more clear that you haven't because you don't actually know anything about economics.
    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    Precisely. People like ourselves who are delving into the health care field now have a massively increased consumer base. The manpower needs of any of the various companies mandated to provide insurance will not change, but the productivity from these employees will increase as health indicators improve.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rail Tracer View Post
    That is because economics =/= politics. What you see as something that would be economically savvy without, I see as politically stupid without.

    Keep pouncing your negative liberty, I don't mind.

    EDIT in addition: There is no policy without causation. By noting that Obamacare slowed the economy, you inherently stated the less obvious somewhere else related to Obamacare. Which is that you deem the economic effects outweigh the social effects.
    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    My understanding of economics is no longer under discussion. That much should be obvious.

    I am far, far more interested in hearing your interpretation of basic economics. Because, from what I gather, you seem to believe that a nation full of sick workers is more productive than a nation full of healthy workers.

    I am dying to hear your economic theory on this phenomenon. We can call it "Zarathustra's Theorem"

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