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  1. #11
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    How short-sighted.

    The United States has sucked for years and is still very much alive and sucking today; and every president who is elected is touted as the one who "destroy the country."

    If we survived a moron like Bush, we'll survive another.





    ... that was actually less argumentative than it might have sounded.
    I didn't think it sounded argumentative and I'm the resident expert on argumentative.

    I think either Obama or McCain would have to be a step up from Bush. I'm pleased that either way, we are getting something better than we had.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

  2. #12
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Razor View Post
    What?
    Black markets are free markets. With medicine, they develop because satisfactory medical care is not available, despite the patients having the resources to secure that care, so they go somewhere else. In Canada, they often come to the US. Where socialism is implemented, black markets thrive. The only way to remove them would be to change the nature of mankind. Good luck with that.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Black markets are free markets. With medicine, they develop because satisfactory medical care is not available, despite the patients having the resources to secure that care, so they go somewhere else. In Canada, they often come to the US. Where socialism is implemented, black markets thrive. The only way to remove them would be to change the nature of mankind. Good luck with that.
    His response was almost certainly to the "This has happened in all European countries". If he lives in one of those countries, it would probably give him a better perspective on it than you have.

  4. #14
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    Typical right wing elitist view. The populace is smart enough to do brain surgery, so we have to let them all have scalpels so they can go to work.
    The populace isn't qualified to perform brain surgery, but they're smart enough to choose a brain surgeon.

    Cosmetic surgery is a thriving, relatively low cost industry. The government (and by proxy, the insurance industry) hasn't gotten its grubby hands on it. I'm sure the government will, eventually, if we keep our current course. It would probably be even cheaper if it was not indirectly influenced by the rest of the health care industry (operating room costs, etc).

    I knew once I posted the fundamental difference between these two plans was regulation that it would turn into a partisan bickering match.
    Regulation has costs. To not see how those can have an adverse effect on the entire industry is just... The intent of regulation is to help the poor, but in the end it only hurts them by reducing choice and driving up costs.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  5. #15
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    I am scared to death of universal health insurance (pardon the health-related pun), but I wouldn't vote for McCain if you paid me. And the Republicans already are trying, what with my $600 coming this month. I'll vote for a non-Ron Paul Republican the day one of them campaigns on "Income tax cuts for everyone; spending cuts all around (including on defense and farming)." Until then, I won't contribute to that corrupt, hypocritical national party.

    P.S. I will be attending a major libertarian conference this weekend. I'll start a thread about it when I get back. I should get to hang out with Ron Paul, James Bovard, Alexander Cockburn (at a libertarian conference? What?), etc.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  6. #16
    Senior Member JivinJeffJones's Avatar
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    It'd be so awesome if McCain won, after all the media attention on Obama vs Clinton. Living in Australia, I thought for a while there that America was actually in the middle of an election with Obama and Clinton being the two opposing candidates. Then I found out that they were both in the same party, and that the actual election was about a year away. So depressing.

  7. #17
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    The populace isn't qualified to perform brain surgery, but they're smart enough to choose a brain surgeon.
    This was a nation in which half the people elected George W. Bush, not just once, but twice. I'm struggling to believe they have a brain to be operated on.

    As far as whether people are educated enough to buy their own health insurance, I've gone down that route and it isn't easy. All those insurance companies want to stiff you one way or another.

    Cosmetic surgery is a thriving, relatively low cost industry. The government (and by proxy, the insurance industry) hasn't gotten its grubby hands on it. I'm sure the government will, eventually, if we keep our current course. It would probably be even cheaper if it was not indirectly influenced by the rest of the health care industry (operating room costs, etc).
    Yes! Cosmetic surgery should be done in the back of vans! Not in operating rooms!

    Cosmetic surgery is still expensive.

    Cosmetic Plastic Surgery Guide - Costs of surgery

    And it is far from a free market enterprise. It just isn't monopolized like the rest of our health care system is.

    Regulation has costs. To not see how those can have an adverse effect on the entire industry is just... The intent of regulation is to help the poor, but in the end it only hurts them by reducing choice and driving up costs.
    It depends on the regulation. Not all regulation is created equal. A lot of the regulation suggested by Obama's health care plan is common sense, and some of it is even shared in McCain's health care plan.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

  8. #18
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    This was a nation in which half the people elected George W. Bush, not just once, but twice. I'm struggling to believe they have a brain to be operated on.

    As far as whether people are educated enough to buy their own health insurance, I've gone down that route and it isn't easy. All those insurance companies want to stiff you one way or another.
    Which is why people should be paying for medical services out of their pockets. Medical insurance, in it's current form, doesn't work.

    Yes! Cosmetic surgery should be done in the back of vans! Not in operating rooms!

    Cosmetic surgery is still expensive.

    Cosmetic Plastic Surgery Guide - Costs of surgery

    And it is far from a free market enterprise. It just isn't monopolized like the rest of our health care system is.
    My point went right over your head.

    It depends on the regulation. Not all regulation is created equal. A lot of the regulation suggested by Obama's health care plan is common sense, and some of it is even shared in McCain's health care plan.
    If it's common sense, then it shouldn't need to be regulated. Consumers would demand it. But consumers can't demand anything with the current system because they don't have any control.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  9. #19
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    My point went right over your head.
    Sorry, I'm tired. I'll reread it later and give you a better response.

    If it's common sense, then it shouldn't need to be regulated. Consumers would demand it. But consumers can't demand anything with the current system because they don't have any control.
    Oh consumers have control. And they will exercise that control come this November.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

  10. #20
    Senior Member htb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JivinJeffJones View Post
    It'd be so awesome if McCain won, after all the media attention on Obama vs Clinton. Living in Australia, I thought for a while there that America was actually in the middle of an election with Obama and Clinton being the two opposing candidates. Then I found out that they were both in the same party, and that the actual election was about a year away. So depressing.
    "Depressing" must be Australian for "unfair that the world is spared uniphonous socialism delivered through identity politics and race-baiting."

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