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  1. #1
    Sniffles
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    Default Liberalism and Socialism

    I thought this might interest some people here (especially in light of recent discussions). Enjoy!



    You can watch the rest here:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCgmhjOPMIw
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rP2c1Eey_aY
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6prJzHHon8
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmDt8Ce8A3I

  2. #2
    Ginkgo
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  3. #3
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Sounds interesting so far, I'll have to check out the other videos when I find the time.

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    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    I watched the video and I'm not sure, I'll probably get to watching the rest of them because so far it doesnt appear to make sense to me, there are a number of things picked up but not completely dealt with when something else is picked up instead.

    So there's the reconciliation of socialism and liberalism, socialism has been defined before but not in this clip, there's then the bohemians and bureaucrats (I liked that, pretty good description of the divisions in the sixties), there's then the proletariats, bidding wars and then minoritarianism.

    I'm anticipating that he's going to be suggesting that a class of bureacrats exists which seeks to exploit minority grievances, fomenting new ones, seizing upon pre-existing ones, for their bread and butter.

    Sure but I'm to this day more convinced by authors such as Nisbet or that other guy who wrote about the cultural contradictions of capitalism, conservatives, who conceptualised the new left as a rejection of liberalism, correct me if I'm wrong but some of the worst sixties violence was at the democrat convention not the republican convention, OK they might still have been the party of southern segregationists back then but I actually doubt that. Nisbet et al's thesis explains why those former new lefties, especially some sorts of troskyists, made the backbone of neo-conservatism and empire Americans. The mindsets are pretty similar between them I think, there's similar character structures.

  5. #5
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    ...socialism has been defined before but not in this clip...
    I thought he did define it early on as the having the government run the economy as much as possible, even contrasting it with the classical definition of socialism as public ownership. What I take away from his analysis is that in the reconciliation between socialism and liberalism, they've both been transformed.

  6. #6
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    I thought he did define it early on as the having the government run the economy as much as possible, even contrasting it with the classical definition of socialism as public ownership. What I take away from his analysis is that in the reconciliation between socialism and liberalism, they've both been transformed.
    I guess perhaps that makes sense, I mean this is the version of history which Belloc expounded in his book The Servile State, which I know Nisbet and others absolutely love.

    I like that book but I'm unsure if I agree entirely with his points and I do find it short on prescriptions, the idea that the welfare state has instituted slavery once more because people have to work to provide the subsistence of others, no matter how megre that may be, is an interesting one but it lends itself too easily to capitalists and the selfish to be something I'm entirely comfortable with.

    Socialism definitely has changed, not for the better, although its an ill definition of socialism to equate it with state ownership of the economy alone, especially "as much as possible" of the economy, that's as easily a fascist, corporatist, eminent domainist or any other political creedo's objective, not solely the preserve of socialism and there sure were socialists who did not believe the state was a means to introducing or futhering the goals of socialism.

  7. #7
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I guess perhaps that makes sense, I mean this is the version of history which Belloc expounded in his book The Servile State, which I know Nisbet and others absolutely love.

    I like that book but I'm unsure if I agree entirely with his points and I do find it short on prescriptions, the idea that the welfare state has instituted slavery once more because people have to work to provide the subsistence of others, no matter how megre that may be, is an interesting one but it lends itself too easily to capitalists and the selfish to be something I'm entirely comfortable with.
    Well the Servile State was only the first work he made on the issue. His thesis of the convergence of big business and big government makes considerable sense in light of recent developments, even Orwell praised him on this point even if disagreeing with the proposed solution. Belloc's later work An Essay on the Restoration of Property gets more into details about possible solutions.

    Socialism definitely has changed, not for the better, although its an ill definition of socialism to equate it with state ownership of the economy alone, especially "as much as possible" of the economy, that's as easily a fascist, corporatist, eminent domainist or any other political creedo's objective, not solely the preserve of socialism and there sure were socialists who did not believe the state was a means to introducing or futhering the goals of socialism.
    For the purposes of his analysis, I think it's a fair definition that works.

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    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Well the Servile State was only the first work he made on the issue. His thesis of the convergence of big business and big government makes considerable sense in light of recent developments, even Orwell praised him on this point even if disagreeing with the proposed solution. Belloc's later work An Essay on the Restoration of Property gets more into details about possible solutions.



    For the purposes of his analysis, I think it's a fair definition that works.
    Well at least he defines his terms and his points can be considered in that context, even if there are others.

    I've not read that book by Belloc, I think I will look for it, there's a lot about the distributivists which makes sense.

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