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  1. #71
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    The thing I'm wondering is, how can he say the SECOND part of that with a straight face?

    Because he's a politician. It's what they do: present one-sided arguments.

    Obama regularly uses phrasing such as, "There are people who say <something unreasonable that I attribute to them>. I disagree. I believe <in a vague idea, phrased such that only unreasonable people might object>."
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  2. #72
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    This is why politics gives me a stomachache. I can't imagine being so unconcerned with authenticity. They are all liars by definition.

  3. #73
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    This is why politics gives me a stomachache. I can't imagine being so unconcerned with authenticity. They are all liars by definition.
    I suspect it has to do with needing to win a majority of voters. The real positions on issues are a broad spectrum, e.g., in your example, someone might be fine with birth control and abortion, but not gay marriage. So ideas end up being phrased in a succinct, most broadly-appealing way, else voters do the equivalent of "tl;dr".
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  4. #74
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Congratulations, someone on the opposite side of the political spectrum of you made a gaffe.

    And, really, based on that video, this isn't even that bad of one.
    That was not a gaffe. He said what his typical audience wants to her: 'the elite, smart people', who happen to disagree with you, are bad. It is simply a way to make them feel comfortable in their ignorance and justified in their prejudices. The pride of the underdog: "I don't have any talents, but at least I'm not morally wrong like all those who do." It divides people, creates problems where there are none and puts a nimbus on simplicity - just an old christian trick, really.

  5. #75
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Well, he is simply aiming at what has now become the main demographic "target" for conservative politicians in the US. So, he's tautologically correct, except that he should have used the present tense "are" rather than the future tense.
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  6. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    The extent to which the public and the private intersect and are inderdependent is not something that free marketeers want to consider really because it upsets most of the narratives they like the most, its no mistake that Rand and her fairy tales matter the most in the capitalist lexicon.
    It's statements like these that give me pause when considering your understanding of American Conservatism.

  7. #77
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Santorum made himself an easy target with his syntax, but his point was probably little different from F.A. Hayek's contention that classical socialism and central planning was popular among academics because a combination of intellectual arroance and self-aggrandizement leads to the 'fatal conceit' that 'man is able to shape the world around him according to his wishes', and the associatted notion that highly educated experts are therefore the rightful architects and guides over societies and institutions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Santorum's also been a Senator and run for President; he's a politician, and has been a lawyer and a consultant. I don't have a lot of patience with "clumsy," he needs to get himself together -- the guy has worked with words his entire career, he shouldn't be unable to communicate his ideas properly at this stage of his life. Unless he just doesn't really understand them.
    Yeah. He fucked up. What he meant to say was: "God chose the foolish things of the world, that he might put to shame them that are wise;" 1 Cor 1:27

    Them that are wise probably should be ashamed for even trying to have a reasonable debate with them that are not.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  8. #78
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    I suspect it has to do with needing to win a majority of voters. The real positions on issues are a broad spectrum, e.g., in your example, someone might be fine with birth control and abortion, but not gay marriage. So ideas end up being phrased in a succinct, most broadly-appealing way, else voters do the equivalent of "tl;dr".
    Yes. I think in a parliamentary, truly multi-party system, there is a bit more clarity of positions, as well as a greater understanding of the need to compromise and form workable political coalitions. Our existing essentially two-party system seems doomed to oscillate between gridlock and extremism.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  9. #79
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    It's statements like these that give me pause when considering your understanding of American Conservatism.
    Depends what you define as American conservatism, if you would like to compare authorities and source material I'm open to it but I bet I've read much more besides what you've done in the right wing press and magazines.

  10. #80
    Superwoman Red Herring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    That was not a gaffe. He said what his typical audience wants to her: 'the elite, smart people', who happen to disagree with you, are bad. It is simply a way to make them feel comfortable in their ignorance and justified in their prejudices. The pride of the underdog: "I don't have any talents, but at least I'm not morally wrong like all those who do." It divides people, creates problems where there are none and puts a nimbus on simplicity - just an old christian trick, really.


    The good life is one inspired by love and guided by knowledge. Neither love without knowledge, nor knowledge without love can produce a good life. - Bertrand Russell
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