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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by SmileyMan View Post
    And yet we have the Archtiname of Muhammed:

    Where is the Christian equivalent of this?
    http://www.devotions.net/bible/00new.htm

    Unlike your apparent preferred method of textual analysis, rather than pick and choose spots that only (seemingly) support your argument, you've got to actually read the whole thing to understand it.

    Quote Originally Posted by SmileyMan View Post
    Jesus was a brutal religious fanatic;
    The fact that you would call Jesus a "brutal religious fanatic" while defending Muhammad as some saint shows just how debased your judgment really is. If you weren't so busy making an a**hat out of yourself, you might recall that Jesus is considered an extremely important prophet in Islam, thereby negating your argument (if it had had any merit in the first place [which, as is clear, it does not]).

    Quote Originally Posted by SmileyMan View Post
    Luke 19:27:
    Wow.

    Congratulations.

    You have the ability to take a quote completely out of context.

    Those were the words of a king from a parable who had been betrayed by some of his subjects when he left his kingdom.

    How do you conduct your research for an argument like this? By googling "quotes that make Jesus look bad"?

    I've already been showing over the last month or so that nothing you say should be taken seriously.

    Congratulations on providing more explicit evidence of why this is the case.

    Quote Originally Posted by SmileyMan View Post
    To think that 4 Americans lost their lives over this. I hope justice will be dealt to Nakoula in the form of an ass-pummelling in his prison cell.
    I'm not surprised you'd be a blame-the-rape-victim-for-wearing-a-short-skirt kinda guy.

    When your continent is majority Muslim due to your pathetic native birth rate, I hope you enjoy being raped in the ass by jihadis.



    I'm sure you won't mind, though: like most European males, you've lost the will to really give a shit about anything.

    Well, other than the green meme: that does seem to be the one (retarded) thing you care about.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    I don't think this is why. Yahweh in the Old Testament was a war god, much like Allah.
    And, as any learned person knows, there is a significant difference between the God of the Old Testament and the God of the New.

    And as for the Jews, most of them are secularists anyway; they are far more orange, green, and yellow meme.

    It's the muzzies who are still predominantly stuck in blue.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiral_Dynamics


  3. #53
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    And, as any learned person knows, there is a significant difference between the God of the Old Testament and the God of the New.

    / not a Christian, nor a part of any other organized religion
    I understand that it's possible to take a nuanced approach to interpreting or understanding the Bible, but not every one does, particularly extremists (of any religion). And let's be honest, it's not the people who are using nuance who are the problem today. It's the literalists, the fundamentalists who are the problem. What you're doing here is something that happens often and I'm not claiming any intent behind your actions, so I'll just say that Sam Harris has already expressed my sentiment on this particular subject. Fastforward to 8:30.

    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    I understand that it's possible to take a nuanced approach to interpreting or understanding the Bible, but not every one does, particularly extremists (of any religion). And let's be honest, it's not the people who are using nuance who are the problem today. It's the literalists, the fundamentalists who are the problem.
    You are quite right.

    (note: read the edits to my post above)

    It is the blue (mixed with red) meme that is the problem.

    The Christian world started emerging from that with the Renaiisance, and then the Enlightenment.

    Reason (the orange meme) started taking precedence over faith (blue meme) at this time.

    This has not yet happened in the Muslim world, which is the cause of the problem.

    Hence why, as I said above, they are about 500-600 yrs behind us.

  5. #55
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    You are quite right.

    (note: read the edits to my post above)

    It is the blue (mixed with red) meme that is the problem.

    The Christian world started emerging from that with the Renaiisance, and then the Enlightenment.

    Reason (the orange meme) started taking precedence over faith (blue meme) at this time.

    This has not yet happened in the Muslim world, which is the cause of the problem.

    Hence why, as I said above, they are about 500-600 yrs behind us.
    Christianity had a few advantages over Islam.

    1. Christian dogma allows for a separation of church and state.
    2. Christianity was not coming of age in a world where there was another, more technologically advanced civilization meddling in its affairs.
    3. There were no weapons of mass destruction during the dark age in Europe (thankfully, otherwise Europeans might have made themselves, if not all humans, extinct).

    The only one of these three conditions that we can hope to change is number 2, but given number 3, I don't know if it's a good idea.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Christianity had a few advantages over Islam.

    2. Christianity was not coming of age in a world where there was another, more technologically advanced civilization meddling in its affairs.
    3. There were no weapons of mass destruction during the dark age in Europe (thankfully, otherwise Europeans might have made themselves, if not all humans, extinct).
    Pretty synchronistic for you to write this, as, after my last post, I was thinking about these two specific factors. The two are obviously related, and yes, when we were going through the Renaiisance and especially the Enlightenment, we were at the forefront of the world, breaking new ground (the Muslims, obviously, have had their better moments in the past as well, which should not be forgotten), not with some more advanced civilization with far superior economic and political systems in place, for us to see (using their inventions), feel inferior to, and thus resent with all our hearts. When we were going through the transformation to the orange meme, there was not some other orange culture out there. Everyone was just blue (or lower).

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    1. Christian dogma allows for a separation of church and state.
    I don't know enough about this topic to make a certain statement, but hopefully we will see interpretations of Islam that become prevalent in which separation and church of state is the norm. I don't know if it's going to happen, or happen anytime soon, but let us hope.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    The only one of these three conditions that we can hope to change is number 2, but given number 3, I don't know if it's a good idea.
    Oh, we can't change #2.

    We live in a globalized society.

    Our mere existence is "meddling in their affairs".

  7. #57
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    So people have some graphic idea of what I'm referring to with these memes:


  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Just saw your edit.

    Yes, the distinction he's referring to is the difference between the God of the blue meme vs the God of the yellow/turquoise meme.

    In Ken Wilber's philosophy, I believe this is known as the pre/trans fallacy, referring to the difference b/w prerational thought and transrational thought, and how people who are in between the two (rational thought) tend to conflate that which is transrational with that which is prerational. This actually happens to me often here. In fact, it happened to me last night at the end of a 4-hour discussion on vent (@Mane). I engage in transrational thought, and thus often criticize rational thought (which is still the dominant paradigm [at least of our "intellectual" class [i.e., people in the orange and green levels of consciousness]). This then results in people devoted to rational thought thinking that I'm defending prerational thought over rational thought, when the truth is I'm urging transrational thinking over mere rational thinking (i.e., not, in Einstein's words, "forgetting the gift" [intuition {N}] and "honoring the servant" [reason {T}]).

  9. #59
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    I don't know enough about this topic to make a certain statement, but hopefully we will see interpretations of Islam that become prevalent in which separation and church of state is the norm. I don't know if it's going to happen, or happen anytime soon, but let us hope.
    I am by no means an expert, but I do think I know more about the subject than the average (ignorant) American. Islam is viewed by Muslims as an entire way of life, not as a simple religion, like Christianity, that could exist within any society. In this sense, even fundamentalist Christianity is more adaptable than (moderate) Islam. A couple examples of how Islam is more political than Christianity:

    1. Jizya is a tax on non-Muslims. There is nothing even close to a tax prescribed in Christianity (my guess is because it was a cult within the Roman Empire rather than the dominant religion in its society as was the case with Islam). There are other Islamic taxes called Khums and Zakat. Khums could be considered to be something like a tithe or income tax.
    2. I'm sure you're aware of the Caliphate. The Shia-Sunni dispute is over the Succession of the Caliphate, and it has been going on for centuries. The fact that this political/religious dispute has been going on for so long should be evidence enough that Muslims take the concept of the Caliphate very seriously. There is no counterpart in Christianity.

    Edit: I have learned this not only through reading on the subject, but by conversing with Muslims (some American, most online, living in the Middle East). Muslims, themselves, claim that Islam is more comprehensive than Christianity, so this isn't a concept I came up with on my own. This is what Muslims seem to believe.

    Oh, we can't change #2.

    We live in a globalized society.

    Our mere existence is "meddling in their affairs".
    You're right. In a practical sense we can't change 2, I was speaking more theoretically.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    http://www.devotions.net/bible/00new.htm

    Unlike your apparent preferred method of textual analysis, rather than pick and choose spots that only support your argument, you've got to actually read the whole thing to understand it.
    Wait, you mean like you pointing out the Prophet Muhammad's success as a warlord to somehow make a point that Islam is more extreme ideologically than Christianity?
    It doesn't matter. The Achtiname effectively ripped that apart.
    I'm curious: You said yourself that Jesus is considered an important prophet in Islam - why did you choose to disregard this in #44?

    The fact that you would call Jesus a "brutal religious fanatic" while defending Muhammad as some saint shows just how debased your judgment really is. If you weren't so busy making an a**hat out of yourself, you might recall that Jesus is considered an extremely important prophet in Islam, thereby negating your argument (if it had had any merit in the first place [which, as is clear, it does not]).
    I'm not defending Muhammad - I'm saying that Islam isn't so much worse than Christianity when it comes to the degree of fanaticism in its teachings. Some people would like to use the fact that Muhammad was a successful general as an argument for the idiotic belief that most muslims, who support terrorism, do so because of what Islam teaches.

    Wow.

    Congratulations.

    You have the ability to take a quote completely out of context.

    Those were the words of a king from a parable who had been betrayed by some of his subjects when he left his kingdom.
    Haha, yeah, that was a mistake. Seeing the paragraph gave me raging boner, and I couldn't contain it.

    It doesn't put a single dent in what I'm saying, though.

    I'm not surprised you'd be a blame-the-rape-victim-for-wearing-a-short-skirt kinda guy.
    I'm blaming him for being void of any and all integrity in this drama, and such people deserve the worst. Chances are that this Egyptian guy knew the risks associated with going ahead with his idiotic plans - it is irrelevant whether or not the risk is just. Thus, if he had any integrity, he would realize that he is partly to blame for what has happened, no matter the legality of it. It's really simple: Those people wouldn't have died had he not made the provocation. Valid parallel:

    "I might murder a person every time you eat cabbage."
    "Oh yeah? I'm gonna eat a fuck-load of cabbage then, because fuck you!"

    No substance, no good purpose; just a completely selfish, immature lash-out at unreasonable people. As I pointed out earlier, the Danish cartoons were completely different and shows what is an acceptable approach to this problem.

    When your continent is majority Muslim due to your pathetic native birth rate, I hope you enjoy being raped in the ass by jihadis.

    I'm sure you won't mind, though: like most European males, you've lost the will to really give a shit about anything.
    >Eurabia scaremonging.
    >2012

    ISHYGDDT.

    The Muslim share of Europe’s population is expected to grow by nearly a third, rising from 44.1 million (6% of Europe’s total population) in 2010 to 58.2 million (8%) in 2030.

    The number of Muslims (adults and children) in the United States is projected to more than double – rising from 2.6 million (0.8% of the total U.S. population) in 2010 to 6.2 million (1.7%) in 2030
    Apathetic American scum! Breeders are the true patriots.

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