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  1. #31
    sophiloist Kaizer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metamorphosis View Post
    Well put.
    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    The Islamic world is in the middle of their dark ages. Unfortunately, this is occurring in the modern age, which allows transmission of irrational ideas and superstition to go worldwide (not to mention the travel of fanatical killers and weapons). The Christian dark ages were limited in scope, unless some bloodthirsty Pope started another Crusade.

    Usually when these violent protests happen, however, it seems most of those injured or killed are other Muslims. This one is different with such a "high value" foreigner killed, and it may actually turn out to be an al-Qaeda operation that just got cover from the protests.
    Everyone blames Islam, but I think it's really the socioeconomic status of the people that causes the problems. Islam is just the convenient vessel that brings them all together and gives them an overt reason to fight.
    A certain point of view in this article....
    The Salafist equation
    The strategic alliance with the literalists is critical for the West in order to keep the Middle East under control
    By Tariq Ramadan
    The answer must be in the attempt
    avy url : natgeocreative Photo

  2. #32
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Appeasement

    We learnt in the 20th century, to our cost, that it is a mistake to appease totalitarian ideology.

    But we have yet to learn in the 21st century the cost of appeasing totalitarian Islam.

  3. #33
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    When it gets to the point that people will, (and unfortunately have even before this), kill others merely because what they say or create does not sit well with them....it's pretty much a dead end for rationality.

    And unfortunately Islam is just another tool for the petty, the small minded and the cruel...among many others throughout the ages.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  4. #34
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metamorphosis View Post
    Well put.

    Everyone blames Islam, but I think it's really the socioeconomic status of the people that causes the problems. Islam is just the convenient vessel that brings them all together and gives them an overt reason to fight.
    Economics might be used to explain some of the unrest, but the extent of violence used by Muslims cannot be explained by economics alone. When you control for wealth and education, extremism does not diminish in Islam as it does in Christianity.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Economics might be used to explain some of the unrest, but the extent of violence used by Muslims cannot be explained by economics alone. When you control for wealth and education, extremism does not diminish in Islam as it does in Christianity.
    Fascinating speculation. Tell me, what scientific methodology did you apply to control for wealth and education?

  6. #36
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SmileyMan View Post
    Fascinating speculation. Tell me, what scientific methodology did you apply to control for wealth and education?
    Ask the Pew Research Center.

    Edit:
    http://www.pewglobal.org/2006/05/23/...-muslim-world/

    Relatively few studies have addressed the public attitudes that allow terrorism to take root and grow in certain societies; those that have rely on earlier data than is provided by the 2005 Pew study. In their analysis of Lebanese Muslim attitudes, Simon Haddad and Hilal Khashan (2002) find that younger respondents and those who endorse political Islam are more likely than others to approve of the September 11 attacks. However, they find that income and education are unrelated to such opinions. Examining polling data from the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research, Alan Krueger and Jitka Maleckova (2002) also conclude that, contrary to much conventional wisdom, poverty and low education are not key drivers of support for terrorism.
    This is just one instance. If you bother to look for yourself, you will find more studies that support this position. I know it's PC (a religion unto itself) to act as though all religions are equally violent or non-violent, thereby avoiding offending the religious, but the reality is that they are not. There's something special about Islam. And this is coming from someone who despises what evangelical Christians are doing to the US.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  7. #37
    FigerPuppet
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Ask the Pew Research Center.
    Provide a link to the article, and please have some forethought and debate etiquette in the future. I find it highly offensive that I have to engage in this extra leg of our exchange; it shouldn't be necessary.

    I'm going to go poke myself in the back of my throat now.

  8. #38
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SmileyMan View Post
    Provide a link to the article, and please have some forethought and debate etiquette in the future. I find it highly offensive that I have to engage in this extra leg of our exchange; it shouldn't be necessary.

    I'm going to go poke myself in the back of my throat now.
    Umm, what?
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  9. #39
    FigerPuppet
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Umm, what?
    Stop it. You're making me sick.

  10. #40
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SmileyMan View Post
    Stop it. You're making me sick.
    You accuse me of speculation without provocation, then you start ranting while I'm in the process of editing my response post? Please. You're just grandstanding.

    Here's something else for you to chew on, from the same link provided before:

    The findings suggest several general conclusions about public opinion regarding terrorism in these six predominantly Muslim countries. First, the 2005 poll finds support for terrorism on the decline, although there are a few exceptions to this pattern, and support remains rather high in some countries, notably Jordan. Previous research has shown that support tends to decline among publics after they have experienced attacks on their own soil, and future research will determine whether such a drop has occurred in Jordan following the November 2005 bombings in Amman.

    Second, terrorism is not a monolithic concept, and different facets of terrorism have different patterns of public support. Many individuals who say suicide bombing in defense of Islam may be justifiable do not support it in Iraq, and vice versa.5 For example, while Moroccans are the least supportive of suicide bombing when it is described in general terms, they are the most likely to approve of suicide bombing specifically in Iraq.

    Third, demographic characteristics appear to have relatively small effects on attitudes towards terrorism, with the exception of gender. Contrary to Fair and Shepherd, we find that women are generally less likely to approve of terrorist acts and are less likely to hold favorable views of Osama bin Laden.
    I'm going to repeat myself here. If you want to know how they controlled for these variables, you're going to have to ask them (Pew Research Center) because I don't know.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

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