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  1. #11
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jontherobot View Post
    Correct. Belief is made self-evident via action.


    Hard to find lurking thoughts when they lie dormant, however.

    Even rightfully killing someone's brother =X
    It's not a perfect process.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  2. #12
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    That. Big-time.

    They "hate our freedom" only in so much as we "exploit" our freedom (in their eyes) to do things they consider immoral and licentious and gluttonous, but I think that just added a lot of fuel to the fire. Ultimately they saw us as the large bully superpower meddling in their way of life and helping their enemies, so we came under fire in the only way they were familiar with and felt effective at.

    At least, that is what I would intuit their perspective would resemble, if I had to take a guess at it.
    Anybody looking for an excuse to hate somebody will find it. They are responsible for the hate they generate in themselves.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    It's not a perfect process.

    I agree. I made another thread in a similar vein to this one, if you'd care to read about it.


    I find the study of counter-insurgency and things of the like fascinating.


    Edit: There's no real information regarding counter-insurgency in the thread, it's all about my philosophical principles.

  4. #14
    Senior Member ZPowers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    Anybody remember this excuse for 9/11? Hiroshima! Yes, Hiroshima, a city in a non-Muslim non-Middle East country that the US blew to smithereens with a single bomb 66 years before 9/11.
    I honestly don't. I recall US support for Israel, dealings with the Saudi Royal Family, intervention and results of the Gulf War, US military bases on Muslim holy lands, and some of our actions in the Middle East during the Cold War being cited (such as supplying weapons to both sides during the Iran-Iraq war).

    I'm not saying they were in the right, doing what they did. Even if you hate those positions (even I disagree with some of those things), there are much more reasonable means of protest. But at the same time, continuing with bad foreign policy might kill some terrorists, but it'll also probably replace them, maybe even more quickly.
    Does he want a pillow for his head?

  5. #15
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    Anybody looking for an excuse to hate somebody will find it. They are responsible for the hate they generate in themselves.
    Either that has little to do with what I wrote, or it fails to address where the hate came from in the first place.

    I don't think anyone is arguing that people are not responsible for their choice of response to situations in life they believe to be unfair.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #16
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Either that has little to do with what I wrote, or it fails to address where the hate came from in the first place.

    I don't think anyone is arguing that people are not responsible for their choice of response to situations in life they believe to be unfair.
    Where does hate come from? It comes from inside the Koran and then internalized. That's the entire socio-politico-religious context that we Americans can never understand because we are not dominated, completely and totally, by any thing even remotely resembling a book like the Koran. But making this observation creates a counter-hate that leads to anti-Muslim violence. That's the problem. Stupid people running around killing people who look like they might be Muslims but are really Indians or Pakis or maybe just your average peaceful Allah-fearing Muslim. Because of a few rednecks we are all forced to cover our eyes and act like all religions are the same, when they are not all the same, nor practiced all the same.

    From what I've read on the Koran, it can be taken either as a book of peace or a book of warfare. In that case, Muslim's have reason to practice it's teachings in different ways based on interpretation, about the same as the Christian Bible only without having been interpreted through any Greek philosophical traditions.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    Where does hate come from? It comes from inside the Koran. That's the entire socio-politico-religious context that we Americans can never understand because we are not dominated, completely and totally, by any thing even remotely resembling a book like the Koran. But making this observation creates a counter-hate that leads to anti-Muslim violence. That's the problem. Stupid people running around killing people who look like they might be Muslims but are really Indians or Pakis or maybe just your average peaceful Allah-fearing Muslim. Because of a few rednecks we are all forced to cover our eyes and act like all religions are the same, when they are not all the same, nor practiced all the same.

    From what I've read on the Koran, it can be taken either as a book of peace or a book of warfare. In that case, Muslim's have reason to practice it's teachings in different ways based on interpretation, about the same as the Christian Bible only without having been interpreted through any Greek philosophical traditions.

    I've always argued religion is a reflection of society, society is not a reflection of the book.

  8. #18
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jontherobot View Post
    I've always argued religion is a reflection of society, society is not a reflection of the book.
    It can work both ways, but I'd say your argument appeals to a Western religious bias.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  9. #19
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZPowers View Post
    I honestly don't. I recall US support for Israel, dealings with the Saudi Royal Family, intervention and results of the Gulf War, US military bases on Muslim holy lands, and some of our actions in the Middle East during the Cold War being cited (such as supplying weapons to both sides during the Iran-Iraq war).

    I'm not saying they were in the right, doing what they did. Even if you hate those positions (even I disagree with some of those things), there are much more reasonable means of protest. But at the same time, continuing with bad foreign policy might kill some terrorists, but it'll also probably replace them, maybe even more quickly.
    I don't see recent history bearing out this view. And it also underestimates the vast powers of the world's only superpower.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  10. #20
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    Where does hate come from? It comes from inside the Koran and then internalized. That's the entire socio-politico-religious context that we Americans can never understand because we are not dominated, completely and totally, by any thing even remotely resembling a book like the Koran. But making this observation creates a counter-hate that leads to anti-Muslim violence. That's the problem. Stupid people running around killing people who look like they might be Muslims but are really Indians or Pakis or maybe just your average peaceful Allah-fearing Muslim. Because of a few rednecks we are all forced to cover our eyes and act like all religions are the same, when they are not all the same, nor practiced all the same.

    From what I've read on the Koran, it can be taken either as a book of peace or a book of warfare. In that case, Muslim's have reason to practice it's teachings in different ways based on interpretation, about the same as the Christian Bible only without having been interpreted through any Greek philosophical traditions.
    I think my initial point was that we got on their radar by sticking our nose into what they considered their business (whether or not the US agrees about that), and once we were already the enemy, then the Koran could be leveraged against us by the militants. I'm not really sure what you're arguing for, we're not really in disagreement.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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