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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    its, not it's. I mean, as long as you're fixing stuff, you might as well do it right.

    Can't argue with the logic, though.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by jontherobot View Post
    Would you buy stock in a business in it's death throes (Africa), or one has relative proper infrastructure (Middle East)?
    As far as growth in the 21st century is going to be concerned, I see much more potential for growth in Africa than I do for the Middle East.

    Africa has massive amounts of natural resources, and the potential for industrial growth and civil development once investments pass a certain threshold is huge...

    Here's What's Driving China's Investments In Africa



    Chinese investment in Africa represents a small—3 to 4 percent in 2011—but growing piece of total Chinese outward foreign direct investment (OFDI) worldwide. Africa is the third largest recipient of Chinese OFDI behind Asia and Europe, totaling nearly $90 billion.

    Driven by a desire to secure natural resources and tap new markets, PRC state-owned enterprises (SOEs) have made large investments throughout Africa.

    Today, China not only recognizes Africa as a source of energy and natural resources but also as a rapidly expanding market for Chinese goods. Moreover, Africa represents an additional destination for Chinese manufacturing to move offshore as profit margins on the mainland deteriorate and the PRC government promotes policies seeking to move the Chinese economy up the value chain. Key destinations for Chinese investment include South Africa, Nigeria, and Algeria in sectors such as energy, transportation, and metals.

    While private Chinese firms are becoming increasingly active globally, SOEs make up the lion’s share of OFDI in Africa. This is largely a result of the maturity and size of SOEs, which provide them with greater capacity to seize opportunities in more volatile environments. Leading state-owned firms include China National Offshore Oil Company (CNOOC), China National Petroleum Corporation (CNPC), China Petroleum & Chemical Corporation (Sinopec), and China National Machinery Industry Corp (Sinomach).

    Investment drivers

    China’s investment in Africa can be traced both to specific policies as well as market drivers, particularly securing access to strategic resources. On the policy side, the Chinese government’s “going out” policy, outlined in its 10th Five-Year Plan (FYP, 2001-05), has been a key driver of Chinese SOE investment in Africa. This policy was reaffirmed in the latest 12th FYP (2011-15), which calls for accelerating China’s “going-out” strategy in three parts: expand outward investment further; emphasize the equal importance of FDI in China and Chinese outward investment; and transform China’s international trade and outward investment models. This policy encourages Chinese firms to do business abroad while making Chinese firms more competitive by acquiring strategic assets, securing access to natural resources, and establishing new markets for Chinese exports.

    Special economic zones (SEZs)

    Through the 12th FYP and “going out” policy, the PRC government has supported Chinese enterprises in establishing a number of pilot SEZs throughout Africa. While not outlined in the 12thFYP, the PRC government has regularly made pledges of state-sponsored “economic cooperation” with Africa. These zones, developed by both Chinese SOEs and private firms, are intended to help China’s own restructuring, allowing less competitive and labor-intensive industries, such as textiles, leather goods, and building materials to move offshore.

    Today, there are currently six zones under construction or completed, two of which are 100 percent Chinese-owned. The PRC Ministry of Commerce is the lead governmental agency in this endeavor, allowing zone developers to apply for subsidies of up to 30 percent of zone planning and construction costs through the Trade and Economic Cooperation Zone Development Fund. Moreover, Chinese firms moving to these zones could be reimbursed for up to 50 percent of moving costs and could receive export and import tax rebates on Chinese construction materials. While these zones are mainly developed by Chinese firms, foreign enterprises are also welcome to establish operations in these zones. Below are three examples of established SEZs, and the broad industry niche each zone supports:

    Zambia: Chambishi & Lusaka subzones, focusing on copper/cobalt processing and garments, food, appliances, tobacco, and electronics.
    Mauritius: Jinfei, focusing on manufacturing (mainly textile, machinery, high-tech), and services (mostly tourism, finance, education).
    Egypt: Suez, focusing on textiles and garments, petroleum equipment, automobile assembly, electronics assembly.
    MAP: Here Are All Of The Big Chinese Investments In Africa Since 2010


  3. #23
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    @DiscoBiscuit

    Hm, I might have misspoken. My best friend is Nigerian, he's been telling me this for some time.

    But the stories he's told me don't give me much faith in the inherent infrastructure... I'm on my phone, when I get back to my computer I will evaluate and respond in depth.

  4. #24
    Senior Member UniqueMixture's Avatar
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    I guess what I am saying Jon is that nations are not good or evil they're good AND evil and which way you perceive the actions depends on whether or not you identify with those who benefit or not. I do not identify with us military action as being beneficial, and I think you can objectively measure this around the world both subjectively (the resentment felt by much of the world and a significant portion of its own population toward us policy) and objectively (the amount of tragedy as measured in deaths, property damage, and pillaging of natural resources either directly or through puppets/2nd and 3rd+ level ramifications of its actions). Imo the harm the us causes around the world is much greater than the benefit derived unless of course you benefit from these actions unlike the other 95% of world population.
    For all that we have done, as a civilization, as individuals, the universe is not stable, and nor is any single thing within it. Stars consume themselves, the universe itself rushes apart, and we ourselves are composed of matter in constant flux. Colonies of cells in temporary alliance, replicating and decaying and housed within, an incandescent cloud of electrical impulses. This is reality, this is self knowledge, and the perception of it will, of course, make you dizzy.

  5. #25
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    As far as the Middle East is concerned... the opening line of this scene from Syriana echoes my thoughts.


  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by UniqueMixture View Post
    I guess what I am saying Jon is that nations are not good or evil they're good AND evil and which way you perceive the actions depends on whether or not you identify with those who benefit or not. I do not identify with us military action as being beneficial, and I think you can objectively measure this around the world both subjectively (the resentment felt by much of the world and a significant portion of its own population toward us policy) and objectively (the amount of tragedy as measured in deaths, property damage, and pillaging of natural resources either directly or through puppets/2nd and 3rd+ level ramifications of its actions). Imo the harm the us causes around the world is much greater than the benefit derived unless of course you benefit from these actions unlike the other 95% of world population.

    I don't think youre position is all that developed beyond "death is bad". Which, fundamentally, is not a bad spot. There are enough in the world that feel differing sentiment to overrun your position.


    What about South Korea? Taiwan? Hell, Japan even.

    You didn't say anything about Bosnia either. Or Pol-Pot, or the Rwandan Genocide... Vietnam? =X Or the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait. Did you know he was shooting for Egypt next? Should all this just have been let alone and hoped to develop favorably?



    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    As far as the Middle East is concerned... the opening line of this scene from Syriana echoes my thoughts.

    I've always held the Middle East in an optimistic light for some reason. Perhaps I am ignorant.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    As far as growth in the 21st century is going to be concerned, I see much more potential for growth in Africa than I do for the Middle East.

    Africa has massive amounts of natural resources, and the potential for industrial growth and civil development once investments pass a certain threshold is huge...




    MAP: Here Are All Of The Big Chinese Investments In Africa Since 2010


    I feel our ignorance really shows in the African condition. So much potential, I am especially reminded looking at this.


    My friend would tell me about the deplorable working conditions US oil companies would emplace in his country. He'd also tell me about how his father was not allowed to go anywhere without being escorted by armed guards.

    Actually, I wish I would have talked more to his father growing up. He was a very seclusive man, though.



    I never would have thought China would beat us to the punch. Though, how much have we invested in the area? I'm heading to google.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by jontherobot View Post
    I've always held the Middle East in an optimistic light for some reason. Perhaps I am ignorant.
    I feel like that video maybe overstated the case.

    While I don't think the middle east will grow as much as africa this century, I don't see some sort of cataclysmic downfall as the oil dwindles.

    I think the middle east's primary obstacle to advancement is cultural, and therefore something not liable to change quickly.

    Africa on the other hand is seeing a resurgence of investment in its natural resources. These investments are just beginning and will continue to grow and become more profitable across this next century.

    The middle is on the down slope. Most of whats going to be found in the middle east (re: oil) has already been found, and is already paying out about as much as it's probably going to.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    I feel like that video maybe overstated the case.

    While I don't think the middle east will grow as much as africa this century, I don't see some sort of cataclysmic downfall as the oil dwindles.

    I think the middle east's primary obstacle to advancement is cultural, and therefore something not liable to change quickly.

    Africa on the other hand is seeing a resurgence of investment in its natural resources. These investments are just beginning and will continue to grow and become more profitable across this next century.

    The middle is on the down slope. Most of whats going to be found in the middle east (re: oil) has already been found, and is already paying out about as much as it's probably going to.

    Yeah, I suppose I've always thought of them culturally instead of their financial aspect. Finances are usually last to enter my mind in almost all regards, as intertwined as they can be to civil unrest.


    Do you think that the finances gained in Africa will be properly distributed throughout the regions that earn them?

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by jontherobot View Post
    Finances are usually last to enter my mind in almost all regards, as intertwined as they can be to civil unrest.
    They're more important than anything else as far as sound international relations analysis is concerned.

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