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  1. #51
    Sweet Ocean Cloud SD45T-2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Not really.

    The uninsured get healthcare services all the time, don't pay for them, and these costs then get loaded into the prices of those who have private insurance (generally after the government reimburses the care-provider at well under cost of service).
    Being uninsured does not automatically mean not paying. Both my mom and I have been without health insurance for ages because we're virtually uninsurable. Whenever we need medical care (which is practically all the time), we just write a check for whatever the cost is. We have never not payed for our medical care.
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  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by SD45T-2 View Post
    Being uninsured does not automatically mean not paying.
    No, it does not.

    Quote Originally Posted by SD45T-2 View Post
    Both my mom and I have been without health insurance for ages because we're virtually uninsurable.
    If you don't mind... could you briefly explain why?

  3. #53
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    I think you answered your own question.
    I did not have a question. I pointed out that the only kind of medical care the very poor are guaranteed to get without paying is crisis care, and even then, the hospital will try to go after them to pay. There is much more to medical care than that. It is more cost-effective, as well as more humane, to provide routine preventive care. The fact that we collectively pay more in the end does not mean the poor benefit more. That makes it a lose-lose proposition.

    Yes, like SD45T, I know a number of people who do not have medical insurance, mostly because of the expense, and occasionally because of a "preexisting condition". Some of them have stable jobs in the skilled trades or services sector but live in expensive parts of the country, or have other significant expenses. They get no charity, but pay as they go, which means they often let problems go untreated, and do not follow through with prescribed meds, therapy, etc.

    If we really wanted to save money, we would pay the smaller amount up front for preventive care, and collapse the hodgepodge of insurers and plans into a single payer system. This will allow everyone to benefit from the economy of scale, and eliminate the duplicative bureaucratic infrastructure of the insurance companies. If we can deter doctors from practicing defensive medicine, we will save even more money, now spent on unnecessary tests and procedures.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I did not have a question. I pointed out that the only kind of medical care the very poor are guaranteed to get without paying is crisis care, and even then, the hospital will try to go after them to pay. There is much more to medical care than that. It is more cost-effective, as well as more humane, to provide routine preventive care. The fact that we collectively pay more in the end does not mean the poor benefit more. That makes it a lose-lose proposition.

    Yes, like SD45T, I know a number of people who do not have medical insurance, mostly because of the expense, and occasionally because of a "preexisting condition". Some of them have stable jobs in the skilled trades or services sector but live in expensive parts of the country, or have other significant expenses. They get no charity, but pay as they go, which means they often let problems go untreated, and do not follow through with prescribed meds, therapy, etc.

    If we really wanted to save money, we would pay the smaller amount up front for preventive care, and collapse the hodgepodge of insurers and plans into a single payer system. This will allow everyone to benefit from the economy of scale, and eliminate the duplicative bureaucratic infrastructure of the insurance companies. If we can deter doctors from practicing defensive medicine, we will save even more money, now spent on unnecessary tests and procedures.
    And what do you think are the drawbacks of such a system?

  5. #55
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    And what do you think are the drawbacks of such a system?
    Politics and privilege. Too many powerful people have too much invested in the present system to be willing to see it dismantled.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Politics and privilege. Too many powerful people have too much invested in the present system to be willing to see it dismantled.
    Could you expand on this.

    I'm having trouble seeing how these are drawbacks of the system, as opposed to obstacles in getting it implemented.

  7. #57
    Sweet Ocean Cloud SD45T-2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    If you don't mind... could you briefly explain why?
    We both have lots of pre-existing conditions. We could theoretically get insurance, but it would be prohibitively expensive.

    My mom does not get health coverage through her job, and I am not employed or looking for work because I'm struggling with a bunch of chronic health problems. The last 5 years have been like a really long episode of House, except none of the things I have are life threatening (as far as anyone can tell) and there aren't any attractive women involved.

    My dad (who is generally pretty healthy) had health insurance for just him through his job, but he got laid off a couple weeks ago.
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  8. #58
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Could you expand on this.

    I'm having trouble seeing how these are drawbacks of the system, as opposed to obstacles in getting it implemented.
    It is a serious drawback to a system if it cannot be practically implemented. What additional drawbacks do you see?
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    It is a serious drawback to a system if it cannot be practically implemented.
    Not if it's a shitty system.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    What additional drawbacks do you see?
    Now you're just asking me the question I asked you.

    How about you go first, since I asked first.

  10. #60
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Now you're just asking me the question I asked you.

    How about you go first, since I asked first.
    I did go first in laying out one way to get significant cost savings in the area of health care. I want to see what your thoughts are on what I have already said before going to the next level/layer of detail. If you haven't thought about it enough to have an opinion, are you aware of alternative ideas for reducing overall medical costs?

    Others can reply, too. I just don't want to get stuck down the rabbit hole of one idea, when the topic deserves a broader treatment.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

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