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  1. #41
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    At least the Bible has historical evidence to back some of it up but the Book of Mormon has no American artifacts or archeology to prove its validity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Is it really intolerant to not vote for someone because that person believes native Americans are a lost tribe of Israel? That's something we can prove to be factually incorrect, yet that's what Mormons believe.
    Right. I also can't tell from the wording whether they would vote against someone because they are a Mormon, or whether they know enough about what it means to be a Mormon that they believe they couldn't really vote for someone who adheres to that faith?

    For example, the official Mormon church is what funded Prop 8 in California, which is considered to be a violation of rights by a number of Democrats -- bigoted and oppressive behavior in itself.

    I also don't think there are many sects of Mormonism, are there? Isn't there just one Mormon church? (This is VERY VERY different from Christianity, where just because you say you are a Christian doesn't say anything about your beliefs except you supposedly believe in Jesus in some way... I mean, not even THAT is assured by the word "Christian" nowadays. You have very very liberal christians to very very conservative ones.) IN comparison, if someone claims to be a Mormon, well, the definition of what a mormon is is far more standarized.

    Quote Originally Posted by RaptorWizard View Post
    At least the Bible has historical evidence to back some of it up but the Book of Mormon has no American artifacts or archeology to prove its validity.
    That's a big side issue -- there's some pretty crazy claims that seem pretty demonstrably untrue, ranging from the lack of archaeological support for the lost tribes to the supposed golden tablets that no one but Joseph Smith ever saw and that he simply "transcribed" as the word of God. There's more historical evidence to Biblical claims, although a lot of that has been challenged in recent years. (For example, I think Finkelstein challenges the claim there was even a great kingdom of David and Solomon; based on archaeological evidence, it all seemed very overblown and the tribes were small and nomadic.)
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #43
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    It is not unreasonable for voters to ask to whom a particular candidate will be beholden, if elected. We do this when we look at who is funding their campaign, or supporting it through PACs. If a candidate expresses commitment to a particular religion, it is likewise reasonable to ask to what degree the candidate will follow that religion's teachings in making decisions affecting his/her consitutency. Some churches are more demanding in this regard than others, Catholics and Mormons being among them. It takes a courageous individual to stand up in public and assert both devoted church membership and independence of conscience. Many faiths support this in theory, while discouraging it in practice.

    It is one thing to vote against (or for) someone because of their membership in a religious group. It is quite another to consider their acknowledged personal beliefs. I can appreciate a politician who makes a distinction between these beliefs and church teachings, and will judge him/her only for the first. If someone earnestly believes, however, that the age of the Earth can be dated from the Bible, or women should be subservient to men, or blacks are an inferior race, these are valid considerations for a voting decision, and not arbitrary discrimination.

    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    Do all Mormon's believe that? Or is that just part of the story line? There are people of all religions who do not believe the religious mythology and simply engage in the spiritual aspects. They reside in the world of metaphors and parables and derive a common meaning and understanding from these things.

    It is difficult to know what someone believes without them explicitly saying it. Furthermore, there are many religious people who claim a belief when they mean it in a metaphorical sense.

    Suppose a candidate, say Romney, to use the current example, believed that Native Americans are part of the lost tribe of Israel. How will this affect his governance?
    If it means he will put symbolism over science in evaluating and addressing the nations's problems, I would have grave concerns about his fitness to govern. If it means he can appreciate the non-literal/non-historical message of a myth, I would draw no such conclusion, and consider it simply a matter of taste. This is why it is important for candidates to be clear about their personal beliefs, whether within or outside of the context of a specific church or religion.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  4. #44
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    Do all Mormon's believe that? Or is that just part of the story line? There are people of all religions who do not believe the religious mythology and simply engage in the spiritual aspects. They reside in the world of metaphors and parables and derive a common meaning and understanding from these things.

    It is difficult to know what someone believes without them explicitly saying it. Furthermore, there are many religious people who claim a belief when they mean it in a metaphorical sense.

    Suppose a candidate, say Romney, to use the current example, believed that Native Americans are part of the lost tribe of Israel. How will this affect his governance?
    How could it not? Individuals who believe things that have been proven untrue are delusional. We call people who question the moon landing delusional. We call people who claim 9/11 was an inside job delusional. Do you not hold a Mormon presidential candidate to the same standard?

    When people say Romney shouldn't be questioned about his religion, I facepalm. We need to know if this man believes all of the crazy stuff in the book of Mormon, or if he's just going along with it all because he was raised in a Mormon family.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  5. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    How could it not? Individuals who believe things that have been proven untrue are delusional. We call people who question the moon landing delusional. We call people who claim 9/11 was an inside job delusional. Do you not hold a Mormon presidential candidate to the same standard?

    When people say Romney shouldn't be questioned about his religion, I facepalm. We need to know if this man believes all of the crazy stuff in the book of Mormon, or if he's just going along with it all because he was raised in a Mormon family. If he refuses to address this concern, I am left with no choice but to assume the worst.
    I understand the sentiment. But I find that it is hard for people to admit (especially in such a public way) that they follow their religion mainly because they were brought up in it.

    I would be surprised if Romney was, in fact, hallucinating despite believing false dogma in one area of life. For that matter, even people who deny things like the Moon Landing or 9/11 may not have a pathological illness, as long as their beliefs don't lead to operational decisions.

    I would be far more comfortable with someone who could accept what the evidence tells him to be true even if it made him uncomfortable. However, we also know that stating that he only believes one of the basic "facts" of his faith in a metaphorical sense can have many undue repercussions for Romney politically.

    I suppose the distinction between having a delusion and believing false dogma is tricky. But my understanding was that delusion needed to be the result of a pathological illness.

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  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    I would be surprised if Romney was, in fact, hallucinating despite believing false dogma in one area of life. For that matter, even people who deny things like the Moon Landing or 9/11 may not have a pathological illness, as long as their beliefs don't lead to operational decisions.

    I would be far more comfortable with someone who could accept what the evidence tells him to be true even if it made him uncomfortable. However, we also know that stating that he only believes one of the basic "facts" of his faith in a metaphorical sense can have many undue repercussions for Romney politically.

    I suppose the distinction between having a delusion and believing false dogma is tricky. But my understanding was that delusion needed to be the result of a pathological illness.
    I don't really think it needs to be an official 'delusion' for it to qualify as a matter of concern... as it will impact someone's performance in the role of presidency.

    As a parallel example of beliefs impacting viability as a candidate, from what I've read, Michele Bachmann (a prior Republican candidate, before dropping out) got a degree in tax law despite having no real interest in it because her husband told her to, and in her faith she feels she is supposed to be subservient to her husband. Because of that belief, electing her to the presidency would be like electing her husband, if she has a religious belief requiring her to obey her husband's wishes. That's not something people really would like to do.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  7. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I don't really think it needs to be an official 'delusion' for it to qualify as a matter of concern... as it will impact someone's performance in the role of presidency.

    As a parallel example of beliefs impacting viability as a candidate, from what I've read, Michele Bachmann (a prior Republican candidate, before dropping out) got a degree in tax law despite having no real interest in it because her husband told her to, and in her faith she feels she is supposed to be subservient to her husband. Because of that belief, electing her to the presidency would be like electing her husband, if she has a religious belief requiring her to obey her husband's wishes. That's not something people really would like to do.
    I see. I can understand knowing particulars about a persons beliefs can lead to not wanting to vote for someone. Still, I just see someone self-identifying as a particular religion to identify the hegemony of their beliefs in spiritual matters. Removing someone from consideration based on that little information seems drastic.

    Most Mormons I have known in real life have been very kind and giving people. Actually, I have found that of religious people of all ilk, whether they are Muslims, Mormons, Catholics, or Hindus. If they care deeply about their religion (and not just about "looking" religious), they are, on the whole, charitable, conscientious, have strong social ties, and believe it or not, very tolerant of individual quirks and differences. The fanatics we hear about, IME, are usually outliers.

    I do find many beliefs that religious people hold in many religions to be not congruent with the facts, and I find this troubling. But, somehow, in day to day interactions with people like this, I tend to find a more warm and accepting environment than in more (for a lack of a better word) secular homes.

    Perhaps this pattern comes about because many agnostics and atheists had to become somewhat estranged from their own religious families, and that it may take a generation or two before the same sort of security and shared experience can be found in non-religious settings. I don't know why. But the pattern I have seen is that atheists, and agnostics are, on the whole, struggling more emotionally than those who take comfort in religion.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
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    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  8. #48
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Right. I also can't tell from the wording whether they would vote against someone because they are a Mormon, or whether they know enough about what it means to be a Mormon that they believe they couldn't really vote for someone who adheres to that faith?

    For example, the official Mormon church is what funded Prop 8 in California, which is considered to be a violation of rights by a number of Democrats -- bigoted and oppressive behavior in itself.

    I also don't think there are many sects of Mormonism, are there? Isn't there just one Mormon church? (This is VERY VERY different from Christianity, where just because you say you are a Christian doesn't say anything about your beliefs except you supposedly believe in Jesus in some way... I mean, not even THAT is assured by the word "Christian" nowadays. You have very very liberal christians to very very conservative ones.) IN comparison, if someone claims to be a Mormon, well, the definition of what a mormon is is far more standarized.



    That's a big side issue -- there's some pretty crazy claims that seem pretty demonstrably untrue, ranging from the lack of archaeological support for the lost tribes to the supposed golden tablets that no one but Joseph Smith ever saw and that he simply "transcribed" as the word of God. There's more historical evidence to Biblical claims, although a lot of that has been challenged in recent years. (For example, I think Finkelstein challenges the claim there was even a great kingdom of David and Solomon; based on archaeological evidence, it all seemed very overblown and the tribes were small and nomadic.)
    Joseph Smith conveniently returned the Golden Plates to the angel who led the way to their location.
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  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    Joseph Smith conveniently returned the Golden Plates to the angel who led the way to their location.
    He also looked inside of a hat and used a wierd device to do his translations and was a notorious occultist.

  10. #50
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RaptorWizard View Post
    He also looked inside of a hat and used a wierd device to do his translations and was a notorious occultist.
    But he never owned slaves.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

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