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  1. #31
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patches View Post
    It's largely about having their own language (ASL). Most hearing people can not 'speak' ASL, and naturally, born-deaf people can't speak English in a verbal social setting. So you've got two groups of people who have vastly different 'first languages'. For hearing people who know it, ASL is just their 2nd language. For deaf people, standard English is their 2nd language (when written and such).

    Imagine throwing 10 Japanese people into a room with 10 Americans. They're going to tend to divide into social circles based on language, because naturally it's easier to relate and communicate with those who have the same first language. Most Americans can't speak Japanese, how are they going to join in? Now imagine throwing 10 deaf people who speak with ASL and 10 hearing people who can't sign into a room. Same deal. The language barrier creates a divide.
    That makes a lot of sense, and I can imagine that a lot of deaf parents (who can't/don't want to get the implant) would be worried about their kid disdaining (or even just growing away from) the deaf community, including his/her parents. I guess the ideal would be to have a fully bilingual kid, but it doesn't always work out that way.
    -end of thread-

  2. #32
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    uhhh ok. How does this sound to you?


    Does this illustrate the problem?
    No, I used those terms with "scare-quotes" because those who normally use them are welcome to them: "Dearie," "Heafie," "Deafie," and "Hearie." I don't divide people that way because born-deafness is not an issue for me and I'm not born-deaf.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  3. #33
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I'm pretty sure that that sort of thing could be considered abusive or neglectful at the very least. At least I would consider it that way.

    Interesting one for the PC liberals to mull over, are the deaf community the underdogs or the children in this instance?
    If it was a true story. Turns out the person who made the video lied about it being his son. And the operation probably never occurred at all. Would someone really fly all the way to BRAZIL to find the doctor who will do the operation ON HIS DOG? And for what purpose, to make a youtube video?
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  4. #34
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patches View Post
    It's largely about having their own language (ASL).
    You raise some great points about the practical parts of language.

    One more part is simply the identity dimension of language, even if two bilingual people have the option of speaking to each other in either language. Each language has a different lens that carries attitudes/assumptions/priorities/way of seeing the world, and I think a lot of people erroneously think it simply means you share identical information with a different code.
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
    C.S. Lewis

  5. #35
    Superwoman Red Herring's Avatar
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    There is a beautiful German movie called Beyond Silence (Jenseits der Stille) about the hearing daughter of two deaf parents who wants to become a clarinetist. It is in part a story of emancipation as they are initially against it because they are afraid it will alienate her from them and they do not understand the fascination music has for her.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psSv6OL-JIQ
    The good life is one inspired by love and guided by knowledge. Neither love without knowledge, nor knowledge without love can produce a good life. - Bertrand Russell
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  6. #36
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Herring View Post
    There is a beautiful German movie called Beyond Silence (Jenseits der Stille) about the hearing daughter of two deaf parents who wants to become a clarinetist. It is in part a story of emancipation as they are initially against it because they are afraid it will alienate her from them and they do not understand the fascination music has for her.
    That's right. Vibrations on the skin is not the same as hearing the vibrations as sound. But my question is this: is deafness a disability if you were born with it?
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  7. #37
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    No, I used those terms with "scare-quotes" because those who normally use them are welcome to them: "Dearie," "Heafie," "Deafie," and "Hearie." I don't divide people that way because born-deafness is not an issue for me and I'm not born-deaf.
    I'm not referring to the word. I've never heard it before, so I'm not sure what the connotations are in the deaf community. It may or may not be offensive, I don't know.

    My "wow" was in response to you stereotyping a large and heterogeneous group of people based on "a few" people you met "back in the day", and using those stereotypes to conclude that although you understand their world perfectly, they don't understand yours at all. The analogy I drew there was an attempt to illustrate this, which clearly failed.
    -end of thread-

  8. #38
    Superwoman Red Herring's Avatar
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    I don't think whether you lost your legs in an accident or were born without them makes a difference as to whether it should be considered a disability. You are lacking two legs that the wast majority has and therefor lack an ability others have, that of walking, dancing, etc, ergo it's a "dis-ability".

    It will however make a difference as to whether you feel like you are missing something. If you once had legs, you'll miss them, if you never had any and live a happy and fulfilling life without them, you might not consider yourself any less fortunate and dislike the perceived implications of the term.
    The good life is one inspired by love and guided by knowledge. Neither love without knowledge, nor knowledge without love can produce a good life. - Bertrand Russell
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  9. #39
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    The language question is more complicated than that. ASL is not written in stone, even if there is an official version. Deaf people can link arms around ASL against "hearies," but ASL itself has no permanent form IF everybody has their own style of expressing ideas in ASL. I've seen a lot of miming intended to communicate things a bit more easily than ASL allows. Sometimes its as simple as pointing to the person being spoken about - or it could constitute stepping back and forth from one spot to another to indicate "this person" and "that person" in the story. Another person might not do those things at all.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  10. #40
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    I'm not referring to the word. I've never heard it before, so I'm not sure what the connotations are in the deaf community. It may or may not be offensive, I don't know.

    My "wow" was in response to you stereotyping a large and heterogeneous group of people based on "a few" people you met "back in the day", and using those stereotypes to conclude that although you understand their world perfectly, they don't understand yours at all. The analogy I drew there was an attempt to illustrate this, which clearly failed.
    It looked like you were just using a "ni**er" analogy. I don't understand their world perfectly, I'm saying that I can understand it better than they can understand mine, as with the parents who don't understand why their hearing daughter wants to be a clarinetist. I can understand why they feel that way: what's a bunch of sound-waves to them? But they can't understand what it FEELS like to listen to great music.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

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