User Tag List

First 12345 Last

Results 21 to 30 of 44

  1. #21
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    MBTI
    IxTP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Socionics
    LII Ti
    Posts
    13,989

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Patches View Post
    You've got to understand, born-deaf and late-deafened people come from two ENTIRELY different perspectives on this issue. Late-deafened people will embrace cochlear implants, because they remember what hearing was like and view deafness as a LOSS and a DISABILITY. Born-deaf people often embrace their condition as simply a different culture... Like being from a different country that speaks another language. They do not view it as a disability, because they never actually lost anything. Deafness is part of their identity.

    So I'll have the same view as any other hearing-person would. Because I come from the perspective of it being a LOSS which needs to be corrected. If I had a born deaf child, I would sure-as-fuck fit them up with a cochlear implant ASAP. And I would do it as early as possible, because I'd want them to start hearing while their brain was still developing as much as possible. Do you know what happens when you wait until a person is 18 to fit them with cochlears? They have to completely re-learn how they understand language. They've spent 18 years processing words visually, and now you want to make them connect every hand-motion with a sound? Sound - something they've never experienced before in their life. Imagine never hearing a sound all your life, and then all of a sudden someone speaks a sentence to you. You don't just UNDERSTAND that sentence right off the bat. You have to go through the long, arduous process of distinguishing different sounds, then forming words, then trying to string them into sentences - which, by the way, deaf sentence structure is NO WHERE close to spoken sentence structure. Their sentences would sound like "Me. Deaf. You?" which they understand as "I'm deaf. Are you?". Imagine communicating things like "You. Me. Drive. Grocery. Store." and then trying to figure out WHAT THE FUCK "You and I are going to drive to the grocery store" meant when spoken verbally. Yes, reading a lot of written language helps with that. But go read some deaf-oriented forums some time and you'll see what I mean. A good chunk of them can't string together basic elementary school grammar because that's simply not how they speak. So you want to raise a child to 18, and then saddle them with learning all that at once? Imagine the overload.

    Or you fit an infant with cochlears. And they accumulate that information slowly over time as naturally as any other infant would.

    I get frustrated at the degree to which many born-deaf individuals embrace their deafness. I mean, I'm glad they're capable of being happy with who they are... But they want deafness to be treated like it's not a disability. They embrace deaf culture in such a way that they get this elitist/superiority complex about it a lot of the time. And because of that, they look upon people who don't embrace deafness like they're monsters.
    Why as monsters? Why not something like, "Those people just don't get it." Where does "monsters" come from?
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  2. #22
    Klingon Warrior Princess Patches's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    MBTI
    ISTJ
    Enneagram
    6w5 sp/sx
    Posts
    5,312

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    Why as monsters? Why not something like, "Those people just don't get it." Where does "monsters" come from?
    While some do dismiss it as "Oh they just don't get it", to many of them it's the same as being racist or sexist. It's offensive. Google the word "Audist" and check out some of the articles that come up. "Audism describes the mentality that to be able to hear and to speak is necessarily better and leads to a higher quality of life." If you think that being hearing is better than being deaf, you'll get accused of being an audist by some (not all). To some of the more militant members of the community, suggesting that deafness is a disability is like telling a black man that his skin color is a disability.

    Which is where the anger about cochlear implants comes in. "You want to fix me? I'm not broken, I'm just different than you." Audiologists who suggest cochlears to patients might as well be running a concentration camp in Nazi Germany as far as they're concerned, because they're looked upon as if they're trying to eliminate their culture/their identity from the world.

    It's a major point of contention in the deaf community. There's a massive spectrum of opinions ranging from embracing technology like cochlear, to abhorring it. You can't go to a deaf-based online forum and ask genuine questions about people's experiences with cochlears without having 20 people attack you for it. I've been permabanned from a deaf forum for saying that I personally didn't want to have children, because I wouldn't want to risk bringing another child into this world who has to struggle with hearing loss the way I have.
    “Everybody has a secret world inside of them. All of the people of the world, I mean everybody. No matter how dull and boring they are on the outside, inside
    them they've all got unimaginable, magnificent, wonderful, stupid, amazing worlds. Not just one world. Hundreds of them. Thousands maybe.” -Neil Gaiman

    ~

  3. #23
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    MBTI
    ISTP
    Enneagram
    6w5 sp/sx
    Posts
    9,489

    Default

    @Patches, that is so interesting (I had some idea that this was the case, but your perspective fleshes in a lot of the details).

    I wonder why this doesn't happen in the blind community? Is it purely that there's more of a sense of community with deaf people than other disabilities, for whatever reasons (more numbers, ASL, etc)? Or maybe it's that being blind has a more severe impact on your life, generally speaking, and is harder to deny as a disability.

    I see parallels to gay and transgendered people more than racism, although of course there isn't a way to change those things (those crazy camps don't count). Although of course those are not disabilities, and I'm not at all suggesting that they are (please don't hurt me), but I can see a similar issue of 'quality of life' being raised, in a hypothetical situation at least.

    Down Syndrome and similar is probably a more relevant parallel, although I'm definitely bound to offend people in all sorts of ways by pointing that one out. But the parallel is that some people see it as equal or even higher quality of life, while other people see it as a disability.
    -end of thread-

  4. #24
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    MBTI
    IxTP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Socionics
    LII Ti
    Posts
    13,989

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Patches View Post
    While some do dismiss it as "Oh they just don't get it", to many of them it's the same as being racist or sexist. It's offensive. Google the word "Audist" and check out some of the articles that come up. "Audism describes the mentality that to be able to hear and to speak is necessarily better and leads to a higher quality of life." If you think that being hearing is better than being deaf, you'll get accused of being an audist by some (not all). To some of the more militant members of the community, suggesting that deafness is a disability is like telling a black man that his skin color is a disability.

    Which is where the anger about cochlear implants comes in. "You want to fix me? I'm not broken, I'm just different than you." Audiologists who suggest cochlears to patients might as well be running a concentration camp in Nazi Germany as far as they're concerned, because they're looked upon as if they're trying to eliminate their culture/their identity from the world.

    It's a major point of contention in the deaf community. There's a massive spectrum of opinions ranging from embracing technology like cochlear, to abhorring it. You can't go to a deaf-based online forum and ask genuine questions about people's experiences with cochlears without having 20 people attack you for it. I've been permabanned from a deaf forum for saying that I personally didn't want to have children, because I wouldn't want to risk bringing another child into this world who has to struggle with hearing loss the way I have.
    Then I don't want to see any militant deafies accepting disability payments!

    My ASL friend, whom I've known for about 35 years, is a deafie sympathizer for obvious reasons, yet he'll explain that sign language is vaguer than spoken speech because of the many occasions where a misunderstood sign has caused great consternation until the misunderstanding is straightened out. He introduced me to a few "deafies" back in the day, and I found them to be a highly-charged emotionally reactive people. So I can imagine the kind of interpersonal problems that may ensue from mixed up signs, based on what he's telling me.

    Of course we "hearies" get confused about words we hear, but it usually doesn't lead to outright fighting and hard feelings that last for months as it does with "deafies."

    The reason I mention this is that, while I can have some (even if a little) insight into the world of the deaf, they can't have any insight into mine. For example, a deaf mother says (contemptuously) that she knows what sound is, because her (hearing) kids had the tv volume up so loud that she could feel the vibrations in the air on her skin. But that's hardly the subjective experience that really counts as sound. It's not the scientific version of sound that we "hearies" hear.

    If they don't know what hearing is like, then they can't know that they are disabled.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  5. #25
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    MBTI
    IxTP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Socionics
    LII Ti
    Posts
    13,989

    Default

    The whole "audist" thing (which sounds awfully racist in a sense) is a very fruitless endeavor. Because the audists in the world must outnumber the born-deaf by 10 million to one, at least.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  6. #26
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    MBTI
    ISTP
    Enneagram
    6w5 sp/sx
    Posts
    9,489

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    Then I don't want to see any militant deafies accepting disability payments!

    My ASL friend, whom I've known for about 35 years, is a deafie sympathizer for obvious reasons, yet he'll explain that sign language is vaguer than spoken speech because of the many occasions where a misunderstood sign has caused great consternation until the misunderstanding is straightened out. He introduced me to a few "deafies" back in the day, and I found them to be a highly-charged emotionally reactive people. So I can imagine the kind of interpersonal problems that may ensue from mixed up signs, based on what he's telling me.

    Of course we "hearies" get confused about words we hear, but it usually doesn't lead to outright fighting and hard feelings that last for months as it does with "deafies."

    The reason I mention this is that, while I can have some (even if a little) insight into the world of the deaf, they can't have any insight into mine. For example, a deaf mother says (contemptuously) that she knows what sound is, because her (hearing) kids had the tv volume up so loud that she could feel the vibrations in the air on her skin. But that's hardly the subjective experience that really counts as sound. It's not the scientific version of sound that we "hearies" hear.

    If they don't know what hearing is like, then they can't know that they are disabled.
    Are you using "deafie" to mean deaf person, as you indicate in your OP, or are you using it to mean specifically "deaf person who hates hearing people/rejects the value of hearing"?

    If the former, this post is um....wow.
    -end of thread-

  7. #27
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    MBTI
    IxTP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Socionics
    LII Ti
    Posts
    13,989

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    Are you using "deafie" to mean deaf person, as you indicate in your OP, or are you using it to mean specifically "deaf person who hates hearing people"?

    If the former, this post is um....wow.
    "Deafie" is the deaf communities word for "deaf people," as my ASL friend informs me. And then there are the militant "deafies" described by Patches.

    Maybe it's "wow" because my sx/sp intensity is coming out right about now. As far as my post goes, however, I was already aware of militant "deafies" and it doesn't bother me.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  8. #28
    Klingon Warrior Princess Patches's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    MBTI
    ISTJ
    Enneagram
    6w5 sp/sx
    Posts
    5,312

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    @Patches, that is so interesting (I had some idea that this was the case, but your perspective fleshes in a lot of the details).

    I wonder why this doesn't happen in the blind community? Is it purely that there's more of a sense of community with deaf people than other disabilities, for whatever reasons (more numbers, ASL, etc)? Or maybe it's that being blind has a more severe impact on your life, generally speaking, and is harder to deny as a disability.
    It's largely about having their own language (ASL). Most hearing people can not 'speak' ASL, and naturally, born-deaf people can't speak English in a verbal social setting. So you've got two groups of people who have vastly different 'first languages'. For hearing people who know it, ASL is just their 2nd language. For deaf people, standard English is their 2nd language (when written and such).

    Imagine throwing 10 Japanese people into a room with 10 Americans. They're going to tend to divide into social circles based on language, because naturally it's easier to relate and communicate with those who have the same first language. Most Americans can't speak Japanese, how are they going to join in? Now imagine throwing 10 deaf people who speak with ASL and 10 hearing people who can't sign into a room. Same deal. The language barrier creates a divide.

    Now throw 10 blind people in a room with 10 seeing people. What's stopping them from communicating with one another? Sure, blind people can relate to other blind people more, so that relate-ability will make it easier for them to bond over shared experiences... But there's nothing stopping a seeing person from joining their social circle.


    Think about communication as a deaf person before the internet and texting got big. Those are really recent developments, so anyone over the age of 25-ish is going to have grown up in a world where communication with hearing people was limited to 1) having an interpreter or 2) pen and paper. The interesting thing in the deaf community right now is how texting is going to change deaf culture, because we've currently got the FIRST generation of youngsters who grew up with texting as an assistive device for communication all their lives. The introduction of texting broke down a lot of communication barriers, and the kids don't know what those barriers were like.
    “Everybody has a secret world inside of them. All of the people of the world, I mean everybody. No matter how dull and boring they are on the outside, inside
    them they've all got unimaginable, magnificent, wonderful, stupid, amazing worlds. Not just one world. Hundreds of them. Thousands maybe.” -Neil Gaiman

    ~

  9. #29
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    MBTI
    ISTP
    Enneagram
    6w5 sp/sx
    Posts
    9,489

    Default

    uhhh ok. How does this sound to you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    My (black) friend, whom I've known for about 35 years, is a (n-word - hey they call themselves that right?) sympathizer for obvious reasons....He introduced me to a few "(n-words)" back in the day, and I found them to be a highly-charged emotionally reactive people. So I can imagine the kind of interpersonal problems that may ensue from mixed up signs, based on what he's telling me.

    Of course we "(crackers)" get confused about words we hear, but it usually doesn't lead to outright fighting and hard feelings that last for months as it does with "(n-words)."

    The reason I mention this is that, while I can have some (even if a little) insight into the world of the (black people), they can't have any insight into mine. ...
    Does this illustrate the problem?
    -end of thread-

  10. #30

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    Father has his hearing child's inner ear removed.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YN5Fdz1En0

    By the way, the terms "deafie" and "hearie" are used in the deaf community to indicate those who can either hear or not hear. To be realistic, it's more like "deaf" and "non-deaf." There are also "heafies" and "dearies."
    I'm pretty sure that that sort of thing could be considered abusive or neglectful at the very least. At least I would consider it that way.

    Interesting one for the PC liberals to mull over, are the deaf community the underdogs or the children in this instance?

Similar Threads

  1. [NF] How to get into company of NFs who don't need new friends?
    By gandalf in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 04-07-2016, 12:48 AM
  2. You don't need religion to have morals
    By prplchknz in forum The Bonfire
    Replies: 94
    Last Post: 03-12-2011, 05:25 AM
  3. [ENFP] What happens to ENFPs when they don't get the alone time they need?
    By cn1234567890 in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 07-15-2008, 08:20 PM
  4. I don't need to
    By Nadir in forum Welcomes and Introductions
    Replies: 24
    Last Post: 12-19-2007, 07:36 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO