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  1. #31
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Why? Because Keynes is an economist, what you said, that the war provided motivation for otherwise lazy people to work is entirely a cultural theory, unsurprising since most classical economics serve only normative purposes.

    Its not economics though. Its all a great rationalisation of privilege and wealth though.
    Why are you wrongly paraphrasing me like that? What if somebody reads your post first and thinks, "Gee, Mal+ must be a moron for saying that pre-WWII Americans are lazy!"

    Oh, I get your secret now.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Well if you dont want answers.
    Depends on the question.

    If I'm trying to deal with the problems we face now, I'm probably going to place a greater emphasis on staying current with our economic indicators.

    If I'm trying to come up with the best argument for government action based on the theories of *insert thinker of choice here*, then I would read that thinkers literature.

    I'm of the opinion that political theories have a shelf life only as long as the circumstances that catalyzed their creation remain. Certainly there is much to take away from thinkers of the past many years after the fact, but the writings of those thinkers become less and less applicable as the world that fomented their creation gives way to a new world with its own set of unique problems.

    For instance, it's said that the military trains to fight the last war it fought. Many of the arguments and thinkers mentioned created their theories to deal with the problems of a world that has long since passed us by.

    While tying oneself to these thinkers may give you cred in academia, I fear that it also unnecessarily narrows ones view of current realities.

  3. #33
    F CK all I need is U ilikeitlikethat's Avatar
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  4. #34
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    Why are you wrongly paraphrasing me like that? What if somebody reads your post first and thinks, "Gee, Mal+ must be a moron for saying that pre-WWII Americans are lazy!"

    Oh, I get your secret now.
    That's not my intent at all but it is something which its easy to infer from your post and the only explanation if you're going to discount real economic factors, ie the circulation of money in the economy.

  5. #35
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Depends on the question.

    If I'm trying to deal with the problems we face now, I'm probably going to place a greater emphasis on staying current with our economic indicators.

    If I'm trying to come up with the best argument for government action based on the theories of *insert thinker of choice here*, then I would read that thinkers literature.

    I'm of the opinion that political theories have a shelf life only as long as the circumstances that catalyzed their creation remain. Certainly there is much to take away from thinkers of the past many years after the fact, but the writings of those thinkers become less and less applicable as the world that fomented their creation gives way to a new world with its own set of unique problems.

    For instance, it's said that the military trains to fight the last war it fought. Many of the arguments and thinkers mentioned created their theories to deal with the problems of a world that has long since passed us by.

    While tying oneself to these thinkers may give you cred in academia, I fear that it also unnecessarily narrows ones view of current realities.
    I'm not trying to come up with a rationale for state intervention because I read Keynes or suggest others do, its not for any ideological reason that Keynesianism makes sense, its for sound economic reasons.

    Although I understand that generations of propaganda, particularly living in the states, would make that difficult to understand.

  6. #36
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    That's not my intent at all but it is something which its easy to infer from your post and the only explanation if you're going to discount real economic factors, ie the circulation of money in the economy.
    Please don't infer things, I write exactly what I intend to say. If calling pre-WWII Americans lazy was my goal, no inferring would be required. Try practicing a little history instead. I seem to recall that pre-WWII America - meaning, the decade before - was characterized by something called The Great Depression which came with high unemployment.

    "if you're going to discount real economic factors." The morale of a nation's people IS a real economic factor.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Although I understand that generations of propaganda, particularly living in the states anywhere, would make that difficult to understand.
    Fixed that for you.

    Keynsian solutions to economic issues could only ever address half the problem. Clearly common sense regulations like Glass-Steagall have a place in the US economic picture.

    But market monetarism, and the concepts of ennumerated by Milton Friedman address the rest of the the problem.

    Hence why I said that tying oneself to a particular economic thinker unnecessarily narrows ones understanding of the problem. Keynesian economic theory may give you a screw driver and a spanner, but Monetarism gives you a hammer and measuring tape.

    Our problems require all four of those tools.

  8. #38
    WALMART
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    If I were a terrorist, I would wait for another American conservative to take office to create civil unrest. Then you're guaranteed a response, and guaranteed another reaping of soldiers to do your bidding.

  9. #39
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    Please don't infer things, I write exactly what I intend to say. If calling pre-WWII Americans lazy was my goal, no inferring would be required. Try practicing a little history instead. I seem to recall that pre-WWII America - meaning, the decade before - was characterized by something called The Great Depression which came with high unemployment.

    "if you're going to discount real economic factors." The morale of a nation's people IS a real economic factor.
    OK so they're demoralised rather than lazy?

    That's still a cultural or normative description and prescription, its not economic, economics corresponds to demand, supply, the circulation of money, employment and allocative efficiency of scarce resources.

    Do you see the basic difference yet?

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Fixed that for you.

    Keynsian solutions to economic issues could only ever address half the problem. Clearly common sense regulations like Glass-Steagall have a place in the US economic picture.

    But market monetarism, and the concepts of ennumerated by Milton Friedman address the rest of the the problem.

    Hence why I said that tying oneself to a particular economic thinker unnecessarily narrows ones understanding of the problem. Keynesian economic theory may give you a screw driver and a spanner, but Monetarism gives you a hammer and measuring tape.

    Our problems require all four of those tools.
    I'm surprised that it took you such a short time to contradict your own post, you suggested that I was giving paramountcy to a particular theorist rather than economic information proper but then you go on to quote Milton Friedman? Friedman who in fact is a classical economist only interested in the descriptions and prescriptions of much earlier theorists, earlier than the supposedly "dated" Keynes.

    The jury isnt out on markets capacity to self-regulate and correct failures, which is the central premise of all those theorists you'd care to mention because you've made it clear that you dont really care about what is actually happening but instead are concerned with the proper sphere of government as defined by libertarians.

    The years and years of economic deregulation have proven to be a complete and utter folly, the virtue of selfishness has been proven to be insufficient, if not positively corrosive, to the creation of a stable and productive economy which creates prosperity for all and not an elite. With that in mind the only possible argument for continued adherence to the anti-tax and anti-government propaganda is to defend the dwindling fortunes and legacies of those made wealthy in the past.

    Its an incredible waste of national resources not to employ the presently unemployed or under employed, although it makes sense from a political perspective, if your priority isnt economic growth or a shared prosperity but defending the wealthy, adhering to classical economic orthodoxy.

    There IS a geopolitical dimension this, it IS possible to limit the need for keynesianism of one sort of another, the US has always employed military keynesianism, if you can compell other nations, particularly those you are exporting to, to adopt the policies you dont want to. Its why the UK and US has put so much pressure upon Germany to adopt even more keynesian policies within Europe and domestically.

    Germany has called the fiscal policies of the UK, its defence of and dependency upon the City of London, short sighted and I dont believe they are wrong. Its crafty to seek to deflate away the debt, using changes in monetary value to make the real cost of debt reduction diminish but it wont address the policies which created the debt in the first place.

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