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  1. #81
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    Mod stuff:

    Both of you guys seem to feel quite strongly about this, but the thread seems to be drifting towards personal argument (with the start of an argument over "stealing the word liberal"). Please back off for a bit.

  2. #82
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    I finally took this thing and got:

    Economic Left/Right: -1.50
    Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.72
    pcgraphpng.jpg



    BTW, I'm pretty sure this test was designed by Libertarians, so you should expect it to make people look more Libertarian in their results. This test doubles as a Libertarian recruiting mechanism.
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  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    BTW, I'm pretty sure this test was designed by Libertarians, so you should expect it to make people look more Libertarian in their results. This test doubles as a Libertarian recruiting mechanism.
    Wrong one. The World's Smallest Political Quiz is the one that is run by the Advocates for Self-Government. And both of the quizzes are generally useful. The "recruiting mechanism" stuff is all hype. "Centrist" is the plurality on that quiz, and it always has been, as far as I know. It only makes sense that a larger number of libertarians pop up on the ASG quiz, since it's an explicitly libertarian website.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zergling View Post
    Mod stuff:

    Both of you guys seem to feel quite strongly about this, but the thread seems to be drifting towards personal argument (with the start of an argument over "stealing the word liberal"). Please back off for a bit.
    I'll defer to you on this.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  5. #85
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Wrong one. The World's Smallest Political Quiz is the one that is run by the Advocates for Self-Government. And both of the quizzes are generally useful. The "recruiting mechanism" stuff is all hype. "Centrist" is the plurality on that quiz, and it always has been, as far as I know. It only makes sense that a larger number of libertarians pop up on the ASG quiz, since it's an explicitly libertarian website.
    I'll let the rest of the forum members decide for themselves, but I'd like to point out two things:

    1. Libertarian is the only political party mentioned on the graph. Left, Right and Authoritarian are not political parties, but Libertarian is.

    2. The axes are mislabeled. The horizontal axis represents economic worldview, while the vertical axis represents social worldview. Logically Libertarian should not be on the axis, but in the purple quadrant. Likewise the green quadrant represents Democrat; blue is Republican; red is Communist. The fact that most people on the forum are in the green section is showing that they are really Democrat, but the graph is making them look like they are closer to Libertarian than they really are. The graph is misleading.
    My wife and I made a game to teach kids about nutrition. Please try our game and vote for us to win. (Voting period: July 14 - August 14)
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  6. #86
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    I don't see how that follows logically. One person's rights to do what they want should end where someone else's rights to do what they want begin. How would that implicitly give anyone the right to take someone else's freedom?
    Your greater specification here would theoretically mean that people can't oppose on someone else's freedom, but it is only hypothetical, because it can't happen. If everyone got to do what they wanted, but without preventing anyone else from doing what they wanted, a person's options suddenly become very limited. It's arguably impossible.

    For example,we have a mundane case. One person wants to blast music out of their car at full volume. Another person who lives near by really needs a quiet environment to be comfortable and productive. Predictably, a conflict ensues between these two people. The person playing the music insists that it is their individual right to play whatever music however they want. The person who wants quiet insists that their peace is being disturbed and that, in a sense, the person playing music is imposing his/her will by playing the music so loud that no one can avoid it..
    Which of these two people is more justified? Whatever your answer is, the fact is that if you give one of these people what they want, you're preventing one of these people from having what they want.

    Situations like this have manifested themselves in more serious ways, as well.
    Freedom of association has been a real legal quagmire in this country for more than a century. What if I don't want to associate with someone, but that person wants to associate with me? Again, no matter who you arbitrarily grant priority, someone is going to feel cheated. This issue has effected everything from political party rules to segregation in schools.

    When everyone is "free" conflict will always arise on the basis of positive liberty vs negative liberty. If you are unfamiliar with those terms, I suggest you look them up.

    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    In the United States, we rely on both the Constitution and common law tradition to define rights. Judicial decisions and the amendment process are two ways we determine what is and what is not a right. You have a right to seek health care, but not to get it for free. Abortion is trickier (Roe v. Wade was not the best SCOTUS moment, as it's based on a vague right to privacy). Ideally, each state would be able to decide their policy on the matter. "Harm" is also rather vague. If it equates with trespass, then I think that it would be a matter of theft, fraud, assault, murder, pollution, etc. An unwanted encroachment upon another party's rights. Self-harm (by adults) shouldn't be a matter for the government (end the stupid, pointless, violent War on Drugs; stop banning food products; let people decide for themselves).
    What measures can be implemented to ensure that judges do their job well?
    Also, why should we assume that a consitution is so well made that it is always right? The USA has plausibly the oldest constitution in the world, but is that a good thing? A lot of people would argue that you can't expect a piece of writting to stay relevant and accurate forever. However intelligent and moral the drafters of a constitution may be, they can't see the future.
    When I ask what rights are valid, I'm not just asking if judges have properly interpreted the constitution, I'm asking how we can be sure that the constitution of any country is correct unto itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    I have more faith in voluntary association, and I don't believe that big government is inevitable. It's been the trend for the last 100+ years, but we actually have less government control over a lot of things in society than we did 50 or 60 years ago. It's a lot better than it was during the World Wars.
    I think voluntary association is exagerated. But this also comes down to what you consider voluntary. If in some primitive era an independant farmer decided to swear fealty to a despot for the sake of protection from bandits, do we call his swearing of fealty voluntary?
    Let's say the farmer knows that he is going to be forced to work a certain amount, be taxed, and is always risking that the despot will stop protecting him if he angers the despot, but still accepts the situation as better than being attacked by bandits... Is that a valid, voluntary choice on the part of the farmer?

    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    There is certainly a left-libertarianism, but modern usage has equated libertarianism with what used to be called "liberalism." I'd gladly trade the terms if we can get liberal back.
    I say that one someone lays out a complex model, they must always define their own terms. If you try using general terms with the assumption that everyone has a common definition, you're making a big mistake. That's why I don't bother splitting hairs over what word supposed to "belong" to who.
    I just want to know what they are supposed to mean in current context.

    EDIT: I'd like to re-emphasize this last part for you, liquid laser.
    Last edited by Magic Poriferan; 06-22-2008 at 03:07 AM.
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  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    I'll let the rest of the forum members decide for themselves, but I'd like to point out two things:

    1. Libertarian is the only political party mentioned on the graph. Left, Right and Authoritarian are not political parties, but Libertarian is.

    2. The axes are mislabeled. The horizontal axis represents economic worldview, while the vertical axis represents social worldview. Logically Libertarian should not be on the axis, but in the purple quadrant. Likewise the green quadrant represents Democrat; blue is Republican; red is Communist. The fact that most people on the forum are in the green section is showing that they are really Democrat, but the graph is making them look like they are closer to Libertarian than they really are. The graph is misleading.
    But you're talking about a different quiz entirely. This one is not the World's Smallest Political Quiz, which was made by a libertarian and is on a libertarian website. I just wrote that. The Political Compass Test people (this quiz we're all taking in this thread) are NOT fans of American libertarians (they smear Milton Friedman badly on the website, in fact).

    And libertarian does not equal "Libertarian Party." That is something Kiddo and I can agree on. I think you're confused here.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  8. #88
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    This is an interesting therad.

  9. #89
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  10. #90
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    Economic Left/Right: -4.38
    Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.74

    And I thought I was libertarian. I always turn out liberal/socialist on this test. It seems biased.

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