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  1. #61
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    Imposing your will on others is sometimes a good thing. I'm sure a serial killer would just love it if we didn't impose our wills on him and we just let him go around killing people. I'm sure a child molester would love it if we didn't impose our wills on him, and we just let him go around convincing kids to let him molest them. I'm sure kids would love it if parents didn't impose their wills on them, and let them run around the streets and do whatever they want.

    There is no such thing as a perfect system in the real world. But democracy is the most practical if you wish to give everyone a voice for their interests. It is far from bad simply because it doesn't perfectly coincide with your personal values. It might even benefit you if you tried to understand other's values.
    You already know my views on democracy as a means to an end. It has become completely fetishized in modern society.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  2. #62
    Wonderer Samuel De Mazarin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    What if it comes down to a vote? A 51% majority WOULD be imposing their will on the other 49% of society. It's a bad system, pure and simple. There is no way that you'll ever get a majority of people (let alone unanimity or a supermajority) to want to ban guns. Nor should you, IMHO, but that is beside the point. Banning something IS imposing your will on other people. Period.
    Pure_mercury: you're far too savvy to think that there aren't tens of millions of people in America who are having others' wills imposed on them (as kiddo pointed out)... this is the reality of any collective of beings (not just human)... there must be some sort of submission to a general will... the general will triumphs because with larger numbers generally comes greater power. The government is an exception which, I do believe, strengthens such a notion. The government wins out on greater numbers because of better organization, etc.

    With your 51% example, what do you say about the Bush vs Gore election? I'm not going to go there (Gore really won the Florida seats)... but he DID win the general majority by more than a half a million votes! Minority imposing its will on the majority? But it went through... and the reason there weren't riots was because everybody, at that point, valued the stability of the system over the temporary violation of justice... because we'd agreed on an electoral system...

    If somehow in the next forty years I see guns banned from private ownership, due to various referendums and/or political legislation, I won't feel bad at all.
    Madman's azure lie: a zen miasma ruled.

    Realize us, Madman!

    I razed a slum, Amen.

    ...............................................

  3. #63
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Mercury, you seem to thing that people are too naive to be entrusted with the powers of Democracy, as implied by your notions that the best leadership does not obey the demands of the people, and the fact that you think majority rule is unfair and potentially dangerous.

    But I don't understand this: Why do you on one hand think that people can't be trusted with the powers of Democracy, but on the other hand trust people enough to feel that they shouldn't have any ideas imposed upon them?

    How is it that they can't make a good decision when guiding leadership decisions, but they are worthy of being able to do whatever they want?
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  4. #64
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    I'm not sure how many times I've taken this thing.

    left/right: -8.50
    Authoritarian/Libertarian: -5.64
    Attachment 1792

    I think that's the most radical I've ever scored. Maybe it's because I'm so tired.

    It's really frightening to me to see what a majority of the world's leaders are supposedly opposite to me.
    *shudder*
    Last edited by Magic Poriferan; 10-14-2009 at 12:27 PM.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  5. #65
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    I took the test again for the hell of it and I don't think I changed any.

    pcgraphpng.php.jpg

    Correction: I'm more libertarian, and slightly less left.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

  6. #66

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  7. #67
    Wonderer Samuel De Mazarin's Avatar
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    Almost everyone here is a libertarian leftist.
    Madman's azure lie: a zen miasma ruled.

    Realize us, Madman!

    I razed a slum, Amen.

    ...............................................

  8. #68
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Mercury, you seem to thing that people are too naive to be entrusted with the powers of Democracy, as implied by your notions that the best leadership does not obey the demands of the people, and the fact that you think majority rule is unfair and potentially dangerous.

    But I don't understand this: Why do you on one hand think that people can't be trusted with the powers of Democracy, but on the other hand trust people enough to feel that they shouldn't have any ideas imposed upon them?

    How is it that they can't make a good decision when guiding leadership decisions, but they are worthy of being able to do whatever they want?
    Because there is a major difference between choosing what you want for your own life, and choosing what shall be the rules for the entire group. Personally, I wouldn't cheat on my (hypothetical) wife. But as a leader, I shouldn't say, "No one should cheat on their wives, so adultery is now a felony!" A stupid individual may make poor decisions in life, but it's their right, as long as they aren't hurting others. A stupid leader making poor decisions affects everyone over whom they have authority. Also, even a below-average individual has better knowledge of their own condition than does the most well-informed and beneficent government figure. At the same time, relatively few people in the electorate know the structure of the government, how much money it spends and on what, the military, even the Amendments to the Constitution. In short, my view is that there is too much governmental power being wielded to begin with, and not enough personal freedom for the individual. Does that make sense?
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  9. #69
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samuel De Mazarin View Post
    Pure_mercury: you're far too savvy to think that there aren't tens of millions of people in America who are having others' wills imposed on them (as kiddo pointed out)... this is the reality of any collective of beings (not just human)... there must be some sort of submission to a general will... the general will triumphs because with larger numbers generally comes greater power. The government is an exception which, I do believe, strengthens such a notion. The government wins out on greater numbers because of better organization, etc.

    With your 51% example, what do you say about the Bush vs Gore election? I'm not going to go there (Gore really won the Florida seats)... but he DID win the general majority by more than a half a million votes! Minority imposing its will on the majority? But it went through... and the reason there weren't riots was because everybody, at that point, valued the stability of the system over the temporary violation of justice... because we'd agreed on an electoral system...

    If somehow in the next forty years I see guns banned from private ownership, due to various referendums and/or political legislation, I won't feel bad at all.
    As to Bush vs. Gore, I have seen several different scenarios under which either Bush or Gore would have won Florida (you are incorrect when you state "Gore really won the Florida seats"; it all depends on which criteria are used). That election was settled in the correct manner constitutionally, so I don't really lose any sleep over it. We have an electoral college and a system in place to decide disputed elections, and it did its job in that case. I didn't vote for either candidate, so I didn't care that much at the time and certainly didn't see it as a "temporary violation of justice." We don't use the popular vote in presidential elections, and we shouldn't, IMHO. If you want to complain about the Supreme Court being politicized and voting 5-4, you have a legitimate argument for getting some new justices in there.

    And if you do help to ban private ownership of handguns, you should feel bad, because you contributed to the loss of an important right we all hold. I will gladly do as much as I can to stop you in that pursuit.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  10. #70
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samuel De Mazarin View Post
    Almost everyone here is a libertarian leftist.
    The funny thing is that the libertarian rightists argue that no such thing exists.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

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