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  1. #51
    Senior Member millerm277's Avatar
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    Look how much guns helped in Waco, Texas. In an age of mass media and an ever-growing bureaucracy.
    Look at Vermont, or New Hampshire....extremely low murder and violent crime rates, yet Vermont has completely unrestricted gun access (No permit for Carrying concealed, you can walk right into a store and buy a gun), and New Hampshire is almost unrestricted. (I think you need a permit for carrying concealed). This is going to wind up pulling this thread way off topic though.
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  2. #52
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    It's probably worth noting that places with loose gun access but low murder rates are usually sparsely populated and largely rural.
    The problem with gun ownership exists most of all because of city inhabitants, where shootings tend to be quite high.
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  3. #53
    Wonderer Samuel De Mazarin's Avatar
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    Well, I'd like to work more with this gun control stuff, address Magic Poriferan and millerm277... but I'll migrate my comments on this to the explicitly gun-control based thread... see you there...
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  4. #54
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samuel De Mazarin View Post
    Well, I'd like to work more with this gun control stuff, address Magic Poriferan and millerm277... but I'll migrate my comments on this to the explicitly gun-control based thread... see you there...
    You may lead the way.
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  5. #55
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samuel De Mazarin View Post
    My question concerning why private gun ownership still exists was rhetorical... I'm fully aware of the 2nd Amendment. I'm one of those infernal free-thinkers who thinks that private gun ownership has done far more harm than good in this country.
    Did you ever stop to think that your dislike of guns should mean only that YOU shouldn't possess one? The most un-American attitude that is widely held in this country today is one that is held on both the Left and the Right: if I disagree with something, it should be illegal. It tyrannical, frankly.
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  6. #56
    Senior Member Dark Razor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Did you ever stop to think that your dislike of guns should mean only that YOU shouldn't possess one? The most un-American attitude that is widely held in this country today is one that is held on both the Left and the Right: if I disagree with something, it should be illegal. It tyrannical, frankly.
    People usually do however not exist within a vaccum, they are usually part of a society, a large mass of people. What one individual does or does not do is fairly irrelevant in this context. If I want to change the environment I live in, for example if I felt threatened by people with guns, then I would have to create laws that apply to all people of said society, otherwise my actions will yield no meaningful results.

    Another option would be to inspire mass individual change, however change of behaviour on a voluntary basis not made mandatory by laws is highly volatile and no safe basis for sound policy and a functioning society.

  7. #57
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Razor View Post
    People usually do however not exist within a vaccum, they are usually part of a society, a large mass of people. What one individual does or does not do is fairly irrelevant in this context. If I want to change the environment I live in, for example if I felt threatened by people with guns, then I would have to create laws that apply to all people of said society, otherwise my actions will yield no meaningful results.

    Another option would be to inspire mass individual change, however change of behaviour on a voluntary basis not made mandatory by laws is highly volatile and no safe basis for sound policy and a functioning society.
    That is a very dangerous attitude. The winds of opinion shift often in society, and you could easily find yourself oppressed by laws which you never would have supported. Look at Prohibition. That wasn't supported by a huge majority of people in the United States; it was pushed through by a concerted, vocal, determined minority who believed that they were doing the right thing. It was a flat-out disaster.
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  8. #58
    Wonderer Samuel De Mazarin's Avatar
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    I'm not looking to impose my will on other Americans... rather, I hope to convince the country, with the aid of those who think like me, that banning guns would be the best way to go. This is essentially what African-Americans had to do to gain civil rights. And yes, I am comparing gun control to civil rights issues. That's how strongly I feel about it... (yes, many ENTPs do have feelings)
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  9. #59
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samuel De Mazarin View Post
    I'm not looking to impose my will on other Americans... rather, I hope to convince the country, with the aid of those who think like me, that banning guns would be the best way to go. This is essentially what African-Americans had to do to gain civil rights. And yes, I am comparing gun control to civil rights issues. That's how strongly I feel about it... (yes, many ENTPs do have feelings)
    What if it comes down to a vote? A 51% majority WOULD be imposing their will on the other 49% of society. It's a bad system, pure and simple. There is no way that you'll ever get a majority of people (let alone unanimity or a supermajority) to want to ban guns. Nor should you, IMHO, but that is beside the point. Banning something IS imposing your will on other people. Period.
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  10. #60
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    What if it comes down to a vote? A 51% majority WOULD be imposing their will on the other 49% of society. It's a bad system, pure and simple. There is no way that you'll ever get a majority of people (let alone unanimity or a supermajority) to want to ban guns. Nor should you, IMHO, but that is beside the point. Banning something IS imposing your will on other people. Period.
    Imposing your will on others is sometimes a good thing. I'm sure a serial killer would just love it if we didn't impose our wills on him and we just let him go around killing people. I'm sure a child molester would love it if we didn't impose our wills on him, and we just let him go around convincing kids to let him molest them. I'm sure kids would love it if parents didn't impose their wills on them, and let them run around the streets and do whatever they want.

    There is no such thing as a perfect system in the real world. But democracy is the most practical if you wish to give everyone a voice for their interests. It is far from bad simply because it doesn't perfectly coincide with your personal values. It might even benefit you if you tried to understand other's values.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
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