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  1. #221
    Senior Member pinkgraffiti's Avatar
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    this is ridiculous and i totally disagree. i was just going to say i believe in total social freedom and i believe in economic regulation (hello, economic deregulation = capitalism = doesn't work!!!!) and then i saw your post and you took the words right out of my mouth

    (and if i say its ridiculous i don't mean its not possible to have social freedom + economic freedom, i mean that your implication that the opposite is not possible is ridiculous. look at communism, socialism: classical examples of social freedom and economic regulation)
    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    agreed, social freedom without economic freedom is impossible

  2. #222
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hazashin View Post
    Capitalism isn't exactly economic freedom; in fact, it's more like the opposite.

    Noam Chomsky once said:
    If your choice is, 'do what I tell you or starve,' that’s not a choice—it’s in fact what was commonly referred to as wage slavery in more civilized times, like the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, for example."
    this applies more to a society with partial economic freedom. in a truly economically free society, businesses are abound and compete with each other for employees. the employee has options, higher pay and a greatly likelihood of receiving benefits
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  3. #223
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinkgraffiti View Post
    this is ridiculous and i totally disagree. i was just going to say i believe in total social freedom and i believe in economic regulation (hello, economic deregulation = capitalism = doesn't work!!!!) and then i saw your post and you took the words right out of my mouth

    (and if i say its ridiculous i don't mean its not possible to have social freedom + economic freedom, i mean that your implication that the opposite is not possible is ridiculous. look at communism, socialism: classical examples of social freedom and economic regulation)
    okay, lets look at communism (Stalin, Lenin, food shortages, long lines of starving women and children, oppressive dictators, low production, billions upon billions of tax dollars wasted on red tape and entirely inconsequential infrastructure, self sacrifice and poverty moralized)

    you cannot have social freedom if the government controls what you do for a living and how much money you make (assuming those are the only things they control, which I'm sure they aren't)
    you really just think you can give the government all that power and money and they're going to use it to "make sure everything is okay" and "use it for the public good"? of course they aren't. people go into politics because they want to have control over other people.
    if you want to trust a system and a leader you don't even know (who has absolutely no incentive to anything productive with it) with all of your power and money and hope they'll make the right decision with it, be my guest, but I sure as hell am not going to. (just know that your system is impossible, people WILL abuse their power and productivity will plummet lower and lower until there is no more wealth to redistribute and everyone becomes poor. the laws of human nature are irrefutable, well documented and do not change, why not embrace a system that keeps this in mind and allows it to be channeled in a direction that benefits everyone?)
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  4. #224
    Secret Sex Freak Hazashin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    this applies more to a society with partial economic freedom. in a truly economically free society, businesses are abound and compete with each other for employees. the employee has options, higher pay and a greatly likelihood of receiving benefits
    Power will still consolidate in the hands of the few eventually, and the same problems would be re-introduced.
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  5. #225
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hazashin View Post
    Power will still consolidate in the hands of the few eventually, and the same problems would be re-introduced.
    power in a free society changes hands quite quickly. 70% of people in the 1% stay there only a very short time and new innovations means that power is most prevalent in the hands of those who are on the forefront of innovation (the internet is a great example of this) maintaining extreme power means one needs to constantly innovate and stay up to date, and very few people do this throughout their entire lives.
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  6. #226
    Secret Sex Freak Hazashin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    power in a free society changes hands quite quickly. 70% of people in the 1% stay there only a very short time and new innovations means that power is most prevalent in the hands of those who are on the forefront of innovation (the internet is a great example of this) maintaining extreme power means one needs to constantly innovate and stay up to date, and very few people do this throughout their entire lives.
    Social mobility statistically does not exist.
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  7. #227
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hazashin View Post
    Social mobility statistically does not exist.
    I'm not well researched on it, but frankly I beg to differ (look, for instance, at the average 20 year old vs the average 40 year old. that 40 year old has usually moved up a great deal in the world since he was 20). people who work hard, play smart and are persistent CAN and DO move up in the world. that's the thing about capitalism. there is always going to be a division of wealth, but in capitalism, you EARN where you are in that division
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  8. #228
    Freaking Ratchet Rail Tracer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    I'm not well researched on it, but frankly I beg to differ (look, for instance, at the average 20 year old vs the average 40 year old. that 40 year old has usually moved up a great deal in the world since he was 20). people who work hard, play smart and are persistent CAN and DO move up in the world. that's the thing about capitalism. there is always going to be a division of wealth, but in capitalism, you EARN where you are in that division
    http://campaignstops.blogs.nytimes.c...-of-privilege/

    Not exactly, over the last 20 years, the division of wealth has gotten bigger and the rich has gotten richer. Who are the ones earning the most in this situation? The ones who are already rich. Yes, it can be done, but you have more things against you than someone who is already living comfortably.

    And no, you don't earn where you are when it comes to division. Your 40+ year old had (possibly more) help from the government, believe it or not. While they believe they did everything by themselves, they've been helped by the government countless of times. From the end of WWII till now I might add.

  9. #229
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rail Tracer View Post
    http://campaignstops.blogs.nytimes.c...-of-privilege/

    Not exactly, over the last 20 years, the division of wealth has gotten bigger and the rich has gotten richer. Who are the ones earning the most in this situation? The ones who are already rich. Yes, it can be done, but you have more things against you than someone who is already living comfortably.

    And no, you don't earn where you are when it comes to division. Your 40+ year old had (possibly more) help from the government, believe it or not. While they believe they did everything by themselves, they've been helped by the government countless of times. From the end of WWII till now I might add.
    we are also feeling now more than ever the effects of the previous generation's reliance on government, entitlement programs and the loss of productivity suffered therein (that is why so few jobs are available)
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  10. #230
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    Ugh, the damn picture thing isn't working. Anyway my score was:

    Economic Left/Right: -6.00
    Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.85

    http://www.politicalcompass.org/prin...6.00&soc=-5.85

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