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  1. #81
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    In my experience, women almost always had better grades in math than guys, the divide only stopped its growth (or changed direction) at the end of high school and-or during our university years.
    ENTj 7-3-8 sx/sp

  2. #82
    Senior Member Wolfie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    Those are good points. I believe a great deal of motivation is inborn. However, I also believe parents can have a great deal of influence on those things I've described. That includes getting the children in an environment where they will thrive and be less subject to the things you mention. To provide an example - if you set an expectation that of course they will go to college - and a good one - they internalize that expectation. If you expect them to do well they are more likely to do well. You bring them up with an expectation that they will be capable of supporting themselves and not have to depend on a man for financial support. If they want to be a doctor or an artist or a writer, you help them understand what they are going to need to do to accomplish that. If you don't know what it takes, you learn about it. Then you actively do everything you can to directly support them in achieving those goals and help steer them in the right direction so that they can do what they want. You do everything you can to get them in the right schools. You help them to understand themselves and their natural talents. You provide positive encouragement as well as letting them know when they can do things differently. You bring them up feeling loved and supported.

    Stuff like that.
    My mom did all of those things and was a scientist herself. I am extremely headstrong and was heavily interested in science (as a career path) until sometime in high school. Things have a way of affecting you subconsciously and before you are even aware of them, you've drifted off course.

    I'm not debating that what you are mentioning can't make a difference. It most certainly does! But if it is enough.. depends on the individual and the environment.
    ( . )( . )

  3. #83
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    So does that mean the INTJ is wrong and you are right, or do you think there are cases where you may be wrong and end up admitting that or are there cases where that dialogue ends up at some understanding somewhere in the middle?


    (or none of the above)


    Edit: sorry - no need to respond to that if you don't want. I don't want to derail the thread.
    I haven't tried to invalidate your experience though have I? I haven't told you your perceptions are wrong, just that they are different from mine. I believe it's possible for two people to both be subjectively right. You guys seem to have a problem with that concept.


    Let's recap your contribution, shall we?

    I create an OP citing a couple of RL experiences which suggest there are sexist elements within IT that hold women back. They don't want to attend key conferences where their scarcity, (and the lack of observation of appropriate social norms) will invite unwelcome attention. This seems like an important obstacle to me - if an avenue of networking is effectively off-limits to women in the way old boy's clubs used to be. I then refer to research / stats that show how few women are in the profession and that the numbers are declining and ask if these things might be linked. I allude to my own negative experiences and a recent court case + editorial that indicates a pattern.

    You then come along and first of all provide evidence of your own sexual harassment in the past, show a wilful ignorance of the stats("it's because women aren't Thinkers"), and then say: "You're wrong. I work in IT and you're wrong. Not only wrong, but absurd. Also, a liar who imputes bad motives to others, because she's crazy, presumably."
    Then you ask for stats about culture, wtf does that even mean?
    Not only that, but you hint, perhaps under the influence of an idiotic troll in another thread, that "all you do is harp on about the same thing", "wtf is up with you?"

    You are gaslighting me. It's a common bullying trick. You don't even know you're doing it. I hope this is educational.

    If I have time I'll write about the last boss I had who tried to gaslight me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Herring View Post
    Thanks for the article. It did resonate with me.

    Oh, and I remember my physics teacher actually saying (about another female student who had gotten the best grade on a test): "Not bad for a girl".That was in the mid 90s!
    I was lucky. My physics teacher (a woman) told me the world was my oyster.
    Almost all my teachers were very supportive, and my family just expected me to excel at everything, without putting pressure on me to do so. If anything, this probably set my expectations of working life too high.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfie
    But it would have to be a very willful child, in my opinion, or who is oblivious to the signals society is sending her, and can somehow plod ahead without influence.
    Ahahaha! It has its compensations.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  4. #84
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    I guess the INTJs are wrong then. And horrible bullies to boot.

    Please provide feedback on my Nohari and Johari Window by clicking here: Nohari/Johari

    Tri-type 639

  5. #85
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Let's not over-generalise.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  6. #86
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Let's not over-generalise.
    Oh thats right. Its just one INTJ. The invalidating, dogmatic, arrogant, patronizing, willfully ignorant, gaslighting one. The one who insults people. I wanted to make sure i captured all of that correctly. Dont worry. Always open to feedback and it doesnt bother him at all.

    Please provide feedback on my Nohari and Johari Window by clicking here: Nohari/Johari

    Tri-type 639

  7. #87
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    In your defence you do have a sense of humour. And in case you hadn't realised, I don't think any the less of you for your mistakes here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  8. #88
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chaotic Harmony View Post
    Heh, I can't answer this because apparently, I'm in the minority.... We have more women in IT here than men. Although, I'm on my way out because I can't take the stupidity of the non-IT people here much longer. (re: I'm on the brink of snapping if I get one more stupid question) And I can say... I have never encountered anything creepy from the guys around here...
    IT helpdesk, yes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Qlip View Post
    I think the OP question is still valid. But, I do think that the number of women who joined the industry in the 90's was a bit of an anomoly. The 'computer' field seemed wide open and promising back then, which led all kinds of different people to hitch up to the train than would've otherwise. It was sexy, once upon a time.
    Since when do men not like "sexy"?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  9. #89
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Herring View Post
    Thanks for the article. It did resonate with me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Psychology Today article
    Researchers have uncovered the reason for this difference in how difficulty is interpreted, and it is simply this: more often than not, bright girls believe that their abilities are innate and unchangeable, while bright boys believe that they can develop ability through effort and practice.

    How do girls and boys develop these different views? Most likely, it has to do with the kinds of feedback we get from parents and teachers as young children. Girls, who develop self-control earlier and are better able to follow instructions, are often praised for their "goodness." When we do well in school, we are told that we are "so smart," "so clever, " or " such a good student." This kind of praise implies that traits like smartness, cleverness, and goodness are qualities you either have or you don't.

    Boys, on the other hand, are a handful. Just trying to get boys to sit still and pay attention is a real challenge for any parent or teacher. As a result, boys are given a lot more feedback that emphasizes effort (e.g., "If you would just pay attention you could learn this," "If you would just try a little harder you could get it right.") The net result: when learning something new is truly difficult, girls take it as sign that they aren't "good" and "smart", and boys take it as a sign to pay attention and try harder.
    I have a problem with this logic. Effectively, she is saying some differences are innate and some are conditioned, and is drawing the distinction in a pretty arbitrary way.

    "Boys are a handful"
    "Girls are good"

    This is taken for granted, whereas, she seems to think that being given negative messages about your accomplishments : "must try harder" has a more positive effect on self-esteem / confidence than being told "you're so clever".
    I'm not convinced.

    If this were the case then taking 2 groups of girls, one where they are told "must try harder" and one were they are told "you're so smart", the former would eventually outperform the latter. This doesn't happen.

    I was a "good girl" and a good student and got a lot of props for it, one teacher wrote on my report card "x has the gift of a superior intellect". This pissed me off because at no point did I accept that I had anything superior to work with than anyone else. I just put it down to my hard work and conscientiousness and the apathy of other less successful students for whom playground politics were more important priorities.

    My extrovert sister was constantly told "you have ability but you are lazy, must try harder" and guess what? She never really did. And she continues to doubt / seriously underestimate her intellectual abilities to this day.

    If it's true that boys are innately more rebellious than girls, then why is this alone not a satisfactory explanation for eventual differences in self-confidence when it comes to tackling "hard problems"?

    Otherwise, the article is just begging the question. Why ARE boys more rebellious, as a rule?

    (I guess it goes without saying that I'm pretty rebellious myself.)
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  10. #90
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    IT helpdesk, yes?

    Since when do men not like "sexy"?
    I meant in a cultural sense: exciting, new, promising. Guys liked sexy too, lot of guys who would've not gotten into the computer biz otherwise. I work with a lot of them, there's a marked difference between those people and the new batch.

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