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  1. #71
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfie View Post
    It was pretty eye-opening for me to hear the experiences of other women in the class, and how most of them were able to trace back their feelings of incapability to hearing "girls can't ____" growing up.
    There are people out there who would not tolerate this line of thinking in any way, shape or form. I'm one of them.

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  2. #72
    Senior Member Wolfie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    There are people out there who would not tolerate this line of thinking in any way, shape or form. I'm one of them.
    Can you elaborate on that?

    Do you mean they wouldn't be able to tolerate girls studying their lives introspectively and discovering where some of their beliefs about themselves and the world come from?

    Or do you mean they wouldn't be able to tolerate hearing that they can't do something?
    ( . )( . )

  3. #73
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    That doesn't seem to work either.
    I don't know what your definition of "working" is. It seems to involve a typically INTJ one whereby I disavow my own experience in favour of your contradictory worldview.

    Sorry, not going to happen.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  4. #74
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfie View Post
    Can you elaborate on that?

    Do you mean they wouldn't be able to tolerate girls studying their lives introspectively and discovering where some of their beliefs about themselves and the world come from?

    Or do you mean they wouldn't be able to tolerate hearing that they can't do something?
    I mean the latter.

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  5. #75
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    I don't know what your definition of "working" is. It seems to involve a typically INTJ one whereby I disavow my own in experience in favour of your contradictory worldview.

    Sorry, not going to happen.
    So does that mean the INTJ is wrong and you are right, or do you think there are cases where you may be wrong and end up admitting that or are there cases where that dialogue ends up at some understanding somewhere in the middle?

    (or none of the above)

    Edit: sorry - no need to respond to that if you don't want. I don't want to derail the thread.

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  6. #76
    Senior Member Wolfie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    I mean the latter.
    Well of course there are women who wouldn't accept someone telling them that. Me, for example. But I was raised in a family where I saw my mother and my sister doing everything. Some little girls do not have role models such that I had. From what I've heard from the women I've known, many of them did not.
    ( . )( . )

  7. #77
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfie View Post
    Well of course there are women who wouldn't accept someone telling them that. Me, for example. But I was raised in a family where I saw my mother and my sister doing everything. Some little girls do not have role models such that I had. From what I've heard from the women I've known, many of them did not.
    I don't think the mother needs to do everything or for the oldest to be a role model for a daughter to feel they can do anything they want to do in life (not that you are saying that).

    It has to do with parents providing them with every opportunity to achieve what they wish to in life, to encourage them to pursue their dreams and to provide multiple means of support to them in that process and as they grow and develop. Self esteem is also something that I think is very important which partially involves accepting them for who they are.

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  8. #78
    Senior Member Wolfie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    I don't think the mother needs to do everything or for the oldest to be a role model for a daughter to feel they can do anything they want to do in life (not that you are saying that).

    It has to do with parents providing them with every opportunity to achieve what they wish to in life, to encourage them to pursue their dreams and to provide multiple means of support to them in that process and as they grow and develop.
    I agree with you that it's a factor, and it does make a difference. But it would have to be a very willful child, in my opinion, or who is oblivious to the signals society is sending her, and can somehow plod ahead without influence. If she sees no women in physics, for instance, receives blatant and subliminal messages in school that it's more of "guy thing", is made to feel stupid by her piers... I mean, how do you think that will result, in most scenarios, even with parental support?
    ( . )( . )

  9. #79
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfie View Post
    I agree with you that it's a factor, and it does make a difference. But it would have to be a very willful child, in my opinion, or who is oblivious to the signals society is sending her, and can somehow plod ahead without influence. If she sees no women in physics, for instance, receives blatant and subliminal messages in school that it's more of "guy thing", is made to feel stupid by her piers... I mean, how do you think that will result, in most scenarios, even with parental support?
    Those are good points. I believe a great deal of motivation is inborn. However, I also believe parents can have a great deal of influence on those things I've described. That includes getting the children in an environment where they will thrive and be less subject to the things you mention. To provide an example - if you set an expectation that of course they will go to college - and a good one - they internalize that expectation. If you expect them to do well they are more likely to do well. You bring them up with an expectation that they will be capable of supporting themselves and not have to depend on a man for financial support. If they want to be a doctor or an artist or a writer, you help them understand what they are going to need to do to accomplish that. If you don't know what it takes, you learn about it. Then you actively do everything you can to directly support them in achieving those goals and help steer them in the right direction so that they can do what they want. You do everything you can to get them in the right schools. You help them to understand themselves and their natural talents. You provide positive encouragement as well as letting them know when they can do things differently. You bring them up feeling loved and supported.

    Stuff like that.

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  10. #80
    Superwoman Red Herring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/...e-bright-girls

    ^I don't know if what is described in the article is true, I don't relate, but like @INA, went to a girl's school, which seems to have an insulating effect on self-esteem. Dunno.
    Thanks for the article. It did resonate with me.

    Oh, and I remember my physics teacher actually saying (about another female student who had gotten the best grade on a test): "Not bad for a girl".That was in the mid 90s!
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