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  1. #21
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Defcon = the entire IT industry?
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  2. #22
    Senior Member ZPowers's Avatar
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    I think it's because IT is a demon clown that eats children. That's why I avoid IT.
    Does he want a pillow for his head?

  3. #23
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Your argument is not valid for a number of reasons not least of which is that in its infancy there were probably more women working in IT (proportionally speaking) than there are now. The trend is declining representation.
    I wonder if part of this is a change over the past couple of decades in which jobs are considered to fall within IT. Women may have been more prevalent in those jobs now considered administration, management, or even library science. A similar and significant drop is seen in the number of women receiving computer science degrees, which seemed to correspond to the advent of majors like Management Information Science Systems (not sure if that falls within IT).
    Last edited by Coriolis; 08-24-2012 at 10:50 AM. Reason: fixed incorrect word
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  4. #24
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I wonder if part of this is a change over the past couple of decades in which jobs are considered to fall within IT. Women may have been more prevalent in those jobs now considered administration, management, or even library science. A similar and significant drop is seen in the number of women receiving computer science degrees, which seemed to correspond to the advent of majors like Management Information Science (not sure if that falls within IT).
    No, the comparison has to be on a like-for-like basis or else has no validity.
    If anything, IT jobs (and degrees) on the whole are less purely techie now than they used to be. And women have always been even less well-represented at management level than in the trenches.

    Attracting women to IT is a problem (because of the geeky image problem) but at least as important is attrition.
    I'd venture that sexual harassment of women is a much bigger issue in IT than in many other fields. It is a macho bullying culture, and becoming more so all the time. I can't think of a single post I've had where there wasn't some kind of at best, unwelcome sexual attention or discrimination, at worst, attempts to force me and other women out for highlighting it. Despite the validation of getting two guys fired for bullying/sexual harassment, my career with those companies was over as a result. And they were just the most visible tip of an enormous iceberg, 90% of which is submerged from view.

    From NYT:
    Although the accusations have yet to be heard in court, even some of Ms. Pao’s critics concede that she is exposing an uncomfortable truth about Silicon Valley: starting tech companies in 2012 is still a male game, and so is funding them.

    Her complaint goes further. It depicts venture capitalists here as a group of 21st-century men who may be hard at work building the 22nd century but, when it comes to dealing with women in the workplace, are stuck firmly in the caveman era — or at least in the 1950s. It’s a portrait that many women in tech find all too familiar.

    *“You talk to any woman in technology and she will have a personal story or know a story where she felt conscious of her gender in subtle or significant ways,” said Kathy Savitt, 48, the chief executive of the social commerce start-up Lockerz. Sometimes, she said, it’s as mild as realizing, “I’m the only chick in the room.” Other times, “it’s a lack of relevance, a feeling you can see an end to your opportunities.”
    The men are closing ranks on one of their last bastions. And it's working.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  5. #25
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    No, the comparison has to be on a like-for-like basis or else has no validity.
    If anything, IT jobs (and degrees) on the whole are less purely techie now than they used to be. And women have always been even less well-represented at management level than in the trenches.

    Attracting women to IT is a problem (because of the geeky image problem) but at least as important is attrition.
    Of course it does. Without knowing more about a particular study, I cannot evaluate the degree to which this condition is satisfied. I am simply making a comparison with the trend in computer science degrees shown below.


    The significant drop in CS degrees between 1985 and 1990 coincides with the proliferation, or spinning off, of IT related degrees outside the official computer science or computer engineering umbrella, and many of the students in these newer programs have been women. (BTW, "management" doesn't imply authority or seniority. Many jobs in financial management, personnel management, information management, etc. are low level clerical jobs occupied primarily by women.) Attrition in the undergrad years may be contributing to the decline in degrees ultimately received. It is interesting that engineering did not see a similar decline, though it is stereotypically geeky as well. Like my own field of physics, it does not seem able to stay over the 20% mark for female participation.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  6. #26
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Of course it does. Without knowing more about a particular study, I cannot evaluate the degree to which this condition is satisfied.
    So why assume then, that study for the NCWIT, (as well as your own source)would overlook such a fundamental statistical principle?

    The significant drop in CS degrees between 1985 and 1990 coincides with the proliferation, or spinning off, of IT related degrees outside the official computer science or computer engineering umbrella, and many of the students in these newer programs have been women. (BTW, "management" doesn't imply authority or seniority. Many jobs in financial management, personnel management, information management, etc. are low level clerical jobs occupied primarily by women.) .
    But we are not talking about low level clerical jobs. Why would women be attracted away from a professional discipline to a low level clerical job?

    Does. Not. Compute.

    (haha, I kill me)
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  7. #27
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    So why assume then, that study for the NCWIT, (as well as your own source)would overlook such a fundamental statistical principle?

    But we are not talking about low level clerical jobs. Why would women be attracted away from a professional discipline to a low level clerical job?

    Does. Not. Compute.

    (haha, I kill me)
    That would save other people the trouble, I suppose. I have seen studies that do overlook statistical principles, so I prefer not to assume either way, and to consider the actual study. We are talking about an apparent decline in women in "IT". My speculation, which I have identified as such, is that some of these low-level jobs might have originally fallen under the umbrella of "IT" but were reclassified later. Thus the same women, in the same jobs appear to have left IT when in fact they went nowhere but their jobs "left IT". It would be akin to a decline in nurses after nurse practitioners were broken out into their own career field.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  8. #28
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    No. This is a widely acknowledged trend, not just a numbers fudge.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  9. #29
    Senior Member Wolfie's Avatar
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    Girls are told they aren't good at technical things. Thinking it is within your capability is the first step to pursuing an interest.

    I'm in college now and I know some girls who are interested in computer science but feel off about it for some reason that they can't quite pin point.
    ( . )( . )

  10. #30
    figsfiggyfigs
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    I've never been in a real-world work environment in IT so I can't really give an opinion about this. However, during my school years, I never had a (lot) of issues dealing with such events. There were a few here and there who were a bit of a pain in the ass because they seemed to be more needy for attention than anything, but I generally had no issue putting people in their places. Men don't make a lot of sexual advances; I only recall one specific individual that made me want to break his face in with a bat.
    I've had a few male students who would become obviously upset when I did better than them in projects and exams, but not when other males do better, they don't react the same.
    That is as far as it goes so far.
    Last edited by figsfiggyfigs; 08-26-2012 at 05:25 AM. Reason: Blah morning post

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