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  1. #261
    failed poetry slam career chubber's Avatar
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    I've unknowingly made a sexist statement when I was responding to an e-mail of someone and told her to ask a technician to help her after she got cranky with me. She replied to say she was the technician...



    My defense is, anybody that gets cranky with me and not have the patience to go through things is going to get that kind of response from me. My assumption was that she couldn't have been a technician and acted like some entitled end-user brat. sexist? probably or maybe not. I don't know

  2. #262
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chubber View Post
    I've unknowingly made a sexist statement when I was responding to an e-mail of someone and told her to ask a technician to help her after she got cranky with me. She replied to say she was the technician...



    My defense is, anybody that gets cranky with me and not have the patience to go through things is going to get that kind of response from me. My assumption was that she couldn't have been a technician and acted like some entitled end-user brat. sexist? probably or maybe not. I don't know
    I often get mistaken for a clerk when in stores, at least in warmer weather when I'm not wearing a coat. I've been told it is because I never carry a purse, and usually am walking quickly, like I have a purpose. (Of course I do. Why lollygag? I know what I want and don't need to spend all afternoon in the store.) Another customer will come up to me and ask whether I know where X is. I tell them no, I don't know - they would need to ask a clerk. Then they usually get flustered and apologetic. It's almost worth the amusement.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...
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  3. #263
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Yes.

    And to be more clear, I have been treated as you describe by (very smart) individuals with IQs a standard deviation more or less below mine. Once you get into that rarefied 95% or higher percentile of smarts, the 95.1%-ers think they're as smart or smarter than the 99.5%-ers. To be clear, they have no reason to believe otherwise. 5% of your experience vs 95%, plus plenty of confirmation bias to believe that those 5% don't know what they're talking about. There just aren't enough data points in normal everyday experience to contradict this kind of self-perception.

    Similarly, I run into the same thing on INTJf, where all those INTJs and INTPs are so sure that they understand everything better than everyone else. It isn't a sexist thing, it's totally a personal intellectual-inferiority-complex thing. Or a Dunning-Kroger thing, albeit at the high end of the competency scale.

    Interestingly, when I was in an environment where everyone was at that 95%+ level of smarts, no one talked down to each other like that. They were still brutally honest and direct, for sure, but they generally assumed that their peers knew what they were talking about. In the everyday work world I experience, that 5% vs 95% factor comes into play all that time, especially with IT types. And thus because 95% of the people in their experience don't know what they're talking about (relative to themselves), they tend to talk down to them and (ironically) each other.
    This is a really interesting perspective, uumlau, thank you for sharing it. I'm going to start to look for it in the environments I'm in. What do you think it is that tips the scale between the 95.1 %ers versus the 99.5%ers in terms of not being assuming and disrespectful? An added awareness of what they don't know?

    Quote Originally Posted by chubber View Post
    Well it used to be called D-SUB or DE-15... see what I did there I just corrected you D-SUB can be more than just a 15 pin (jerking your chain)

    And I would have taken the cable or tell you what you've been doing even if you didn't ask for it, even if you were a guy. 'Cause seeing a person mangling a 15 pin like that is pure torture to me.

    You probably didn't mangle it


    Actually, you're totally getting at the heart of the funny thing here. I'm not in IT at all, nor did I ever intend to approach it. The only reason I knew anything at all about a VGA cable was because I had to crash-course myself in it when someone asked me about finding the right one for her needs a week ago. I have essentially been "bumped" into a position where I have to deal with a lot of computer/technical stuff due to reorganization in my workplace - the job I applied for only dealt with it tangentially before now. I'm currently being trained by a contracted IT consultant to become the resident technical expert even though I have zero background and was never assessed for potential, and while I still retain a number of non-technical job priorities. It's really a stupid situation, but the position is stable, the purpose is worthwhile, and I am fond of my salary and benefits while I save for psych graduate school. So I'm just thanking whatever powers may be that I've always had an intuitive knack for navigating technology and seem to be catching on quickly!

    The other funny thing is I actually assumed that Mr. VGA Heavy Hands knew more than me when he approached me, and after being initially taken aback by his forcefulness, was rather hoping that he would be a useful resource! I will totally be the first to admit that I am flying by the seat of my pants and there are probably numerous people in my building who know more than me about specific issues, very much including VGA cables.

    But it's absolutely this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis
    I doubt the man in Skylights' story would have taken the cable from her had she been a man. It would have taken a higher threshold for him to interfere and tell another man he was doing something "wrong".
    He pushed himself into my space, took something from my hands, and took charge of the equipment I was working on even though he clearly hadn't accurately assessed whether I was actually doing things right or not. There was no evidence to lead him to conclude I was struggling, as I had done nothing incorrectly and wasn't displaying signs of distress. I am open to others' input, even if it's not warm and fuzzy (my ESTJ 8 boss certainly isn't the warm and fuzzy variety), and am very aware that others may know more than me. Still, I feel that it is my right to be treated with respect of my potential knowledge and my physical space, with some degree of courtesy, especially in a professional environment.

    It was the automatic dismissal of my skill in an atypical area and the physical intrusion that led me to interpret this as a gender-related occurrence. I can't imagine him ever doing this to another man - it would be intrusive and inappropriate, as it was with me, good intentions aside.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis
    IME, that sort of "everyday sexism" needs a low-key but immediate response.
    Yes, I agree. Women can very much be part of the problem and I think it's important that we try to be aware and try to handle things in a cooperative but clear manner. In this situation I think my cable hero learned his own lesson given that he turned a rather bright shade of pink upon realizing that he was trying to plug my cable into the port I already had the other end snugly screwed into. I did let him know that I had intentionally borrowed it to run testing elsewhere, implying that I had quite successfully removed and reconnected three of the same cables...


  4. #264
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    This is a really interesting perspective, uumlau, thank you for sharing it. I'm going to start to look for it in the environments I'm in.
    I'll be interested in your observations!

    What do you think it is that tips the scale between the 95.1 %ers versus the 99.5%ers in terms of not being assuming and disrespectful? An added awareness of what they don't know?
    More like "lack of experience with people who are very much smarter than you are". In my case, I went to schools where physics Nobel laureates were common, and my fellow students were all very intellectually accomplished, many with higher SAT scores than mine (even a few perfect scores). In that kind of environment, it is hard to determine who really knows more than you do, thus the only thing you CAN do is just listen to each other and learn. One surprise for me was that those with the higher SAT scores than mine often had a more difficult time with core classes (in science and math) than I did. They could have a perfect 800 in math, but the concept of linear differential equations would blow them away, where I find them remarkably easy.

    In that kind of environment, one learns that there are several different KINDS of expertise, and that even someone who is nominally "less intelligent" by some measure can know things, can have an expertise, that surpasses even the most advanced genius. In other words, I always have something to learn from just about anyone, no matter how "smart" they are. Even an imbecile who is expert in something I don't know has something to teach me about their expertise.

    So my overall postulation on this matter is that in the matter of Computer Science classes and the like, that most aspiring technical professionals take, they're used to being smarter than EVERYONE, pretty much. That teaches a confirmation bias lesson that "I'm smarter than everyone else". They don't realize that the really smart people went to other schools and took even more advanced classes, that their personal understanding of "everyone" is limited. When they go out into the work world, it is still mostly true that they're smarter than everyone else, feeding their confirmation bias. And that in turn feeds their attitude towards others, and determines how they treat others, regardless of sex.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.
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  5. #265
    Senior Member danseen's Avatar
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    er..no. There are numerous female ICT workers...in all areas, networking, software engineering, systems analysis, you name it....

    Don't stereotype...since we know the XX chromosomes make knowing what the TCP/IP Application Layer does redundant....
    Good result (vs. Soton)...still have to go #Arsene

    Tengo los conocimientos estardiar....no hay un motivo para estar al tanto de la reunión que sucedió hace mucho tiempo ....

  6. #266
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Wow, this thread takes me back.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


    This is not going to go the way you think....

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  7. #267
    Habitual Fi LineStepper JocktheMotie's Avatar
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    I'm sort of in IT and I love getting felt up.

    If you don't like getting felt up at conferences, man or woman, maybe IT just isn't for you.


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  8. #268
    my floof is luxury Wind Up Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    I'm sort of in IT and I love getting felt up.

    If you don't like getting felt up at conferences, man or woman, maybe IT just isn't for you.
    I, for one, welcome our First Base Overlords.
    And so long as you haven’t experienced this: to die and so to grow,
    you are only a troubled guest on the dark earth

  9. #269
    Symbolic Herald Vasilisa's Avatar
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    Default WOMAN VERSUS COMPUTER!

    the formless thing which gives things form!
    Found Forum Haiku Project


    Positive Spin | your feedback welcomed | Darker Criticism

  10. #270
    Senior Member Babybop's Avatar
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    Because INTP/INTJ/ENTP women are extremely rare.

    Personally, I've always been really good with technology, but I can't see myself ever going into IT because of the required education. The "felt up at conferences" possibility wouldn't deter me; literally every person I've had a relationship with has either worked in IT or worked on computers as a hobby.

    I have come across 5 open-ended patterns with women:
    -the "people person"
    -the no-nonsense managerial type
    -the hard-working, bold, 'tough' woman
    -the creative artist/dreamer
    -the technologically-skilled geek/internet addict/gamer

    That is in order of how commonly I meet women like each of these archetypes. Even the majority of thinker women are Te/Si users, which usually = traditionalism and rules over the type of innovative problem-solving nature that IT requires. Although some feeler women might be skilled with technology, most of them probably either prefer to work with people or prefer to have a job where they can express themselves a little more freely.
    Previous username: EliaBlack
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